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Nick Foligno: 2nd Line? Trade Bait?

In a GDT recently, someone mentioned that, despite posting the fourth highest point total among Senators forwards, Nick Foligno routinely finds himself out of the equation when it comes to our top two lines. Many fans on the site have realized Nick's value, often using him as the obligatory ‘roster player' added to fantasy moves for Rick Nash, Jeff Carter, and other enticing players.

But this made me wonder, what is Nick Foligno's value? I'm pleased as punch to have been able to pick him up for nothing in my hockey pool, but should Bryan Murray drop him if someone else becomes available? Should Paul MacLean use him on our second line with Alfie and Turris?

To get a better understanding of his value, let's look at his stats. In 61 games this year, Foligno has 12 goals and 22 assists for 34 points. Of his 12 goals, 1 was a powerplay goal and 2 were game winners. His shooting percentage is 11.4%, he has taken 105 shots, and has a whopping 83 PIMs (I was a little surprised by this). His TOI average is 14:53. This includes season lows of 8:07 on December 10 against Vancouver and 5:56 on December 22 against Florida, when he was ejected in both games for questionable hits (collecting 17 and 15 minutes of penalties respectively). This average also includes the relatively high 20:05 (his season high) in a game on December 14 against Boston and 18:30 on December 13 against Buffalo (the Buffalo game was when Karlsson took Michalek out and consequently, the top line winger missed the Boston game).

Those seem like decent returns for Foligno, perhaps not quite the production we'd want from a second line winger, but better returns than Colin Greening (61-12-15-27) who has seen significant first line time but only gets an 8.6% return on his 139 shots or Erik Condra (60-7-14-21) a frequent choice for Turris' wing, who's shooting percentage is a measly 6.7%. Chris Neil, who frequently plays a role on the powerplay (which I think is better served by Foligno), also falls shy of Nick's totals (52-9-10-19, 9.2%).

If Bobby Butler's current play merits first line consideration - it does - than the Senators second line wing options for the Turris-Alfie line seem to be Foligno, Condra, or Greening, and it should be Foligno. But should Murray capitalize on his value and trade Foligno?

To get a better understanding of Foligno's value on both the second line and as trade bait, I'll compare Nick to other similar top-six wingers in the Eastern Conference.

First, teammate Milan Michalek, the Senators undisputed top line left winger. Milan and Nick play a similar style: both go to the dirty areas in front of the net to create chances. While Milan frequently puts it in the net from between the circles, Nick is often creating a distraction and opening up space for his teammates. While Michalek has missed five games with a concussion (who says Karlsson can't play physical?) his point total compares to Foligno's. In 56 games, Milan's had 25 goals and 14 assists for 39 points. Milan's obvious advantage is that he has double Nick's goal total and his 15.8% shooting percentage is the main reason why. However, Milan averages 19:22 in ice time, which includes his season-low 10:05 when he suffered a concussion midway through the Buffalo game on December 13. That's over four minutes more than Nick.

Let's look at the opposition. Philadelphia's Wayne Simmonds' is a winger who plays a comparable game to Nick's: physical, with offensive upside. Wayne also has a similar stat line to Nick's: 59 games played, 22 goals, 17 assists, 39 points, 75 PIMs, with a shooting percentage of 15.5%. That's good for fourth on the Flyers (Nick sits fifth for the Sens). His TOI average is 16:03, over a minute more than Nick.

Milan Lucic is Boston's top left winger and sits third in team scoring. While the Bruins do have some games in hand on the Senators, Lucic's numbers aren't that far off Foligno's. In 56 games this season, Lucic has 20 goals and 22 assists for 42 points. Add to that 109 PIMs and you have a recipe for a vintage power forward. Lucic actually shoots about as much as #71, having fired 106 pucks at opposition goalies. It's what he does with those shots that makes the difference (ie. does not miss with the frequency of Jason Spezza). Lucic is the owner of an 18.9% shooting percentage, which makes him a beast and means he should probably shoot at goalies more instead of running them over. Lucic's TOI average is a modest 16:34; however, this average includes several games with misconducts, including the game against the Canucks on January 7th, where Lucic played just 1:27. Still, it's approximately 1:45 more than Foligno.

Boston has a second top-six forward who compares with Foligno, the ever irritating Brad Marchand. Marchand is currently tied for fourth place in Bruins scoring with David Krejci (who is having an abysmal year). Limited to 51 games because of poor decisions (ie suspension), Marchand has still contributed 19 goals and 21 assists for 40 points, only two behind Lucic. Like Foligno, Marchand is a natural centre who often plays wing. While Marchand has a better points-per-game ratio than Foligno [.78 P/G vs. .56 P/G (although Nick's is much better than fellow Senators Greening .44 P/G and Condra .35 P/G)], I like Foligno's decision making ability better when it comes to physical play. However, referees do not agree with me (both Marchand and Foligno have received multiple misconducts this year). Marchand also plays three minutes more per game than Foligno (Marchand's TOI average is 17:26).

Like Foligno, New Jersey's David Clarkson also falls into the second line/third line limbo. He's sixth on the team in scoring, but has produced 23 goals and 10 assists for 33 points in 59 games. Of his 23 goals, 5 have been game winners. He has the most sandpaper out of all New Jersey's point producers, with 97 PIMs. He definitely takes more shots than Foligno (166), but is also better at converting them (13.9%). His TOI average is 16:15.

Finally, let's look at New York Rangers captain Ryan Callahan. Callahan is a gritty winger and leader who has already hit the 20 goal mark this season. Yet his stat line compares reasonably well with Foligno. In 58 games, Callahan has scored 23 goals and 20 assists for 43 points, while adding 53 penalty minutes. Callahan is second on the Rangers in scoring, in front of marquee free agent signing Brad Richards (40 points) and behind only the guy who stole the All Star game MVP from Alfie (Gaborik - 50 points). However, Callahan is turning into a new Captain Clutch: of his 43 points, 11 of them are on the powerplay, he has 1 shorthanded goal, and 6 game winning goals (tied for 6th best in the league). His shooting percentage is slightly better than Nick's at 12.9%, but he certainly takes more shots (178). He doesn't benefit from taking a regular shift with the blue shirts star Marian Gaborik, but probably benefits from not facing the defensive match ups that go along with that. Callahan averages over 20 minutes a game (20:51 TOI), which includes a mind boggling 28:11 against Tampa on December 8th, after playing over 25 minutes against the Leafs in the previous game. That's elite shutdown defenseman playoff TOI, not regular season second line forward time. No wonder he's the captain.

Perhaps most interesting of this group is Callahan. Two years Foligno's senior, Callahan split two seasons between the Rangers and their AHL affiliate the Hartford Wolf Pack. Callahan played 73 combined games for the Wolf Pack in 2006-07 and 2007-08, scoring 42 goals and 70 points. Nick never spent a full season in Bingo, playing only 28 games for the B-Sens in 2007-08, recording 6 goals and 19 points before becoming a permanent member of the NHL team that same year.

Callahan's stat lines with the Rangers illustrate his development at the NHL level: 06-07: 14-4-2-6; 07-08: 52-8-5-13; 08-09: 81-22-18-40; 09-10: 77-19-18-37; 10-11: 60-23-25-48. Foligno's stats show similar growth but, admittedly, less production than Callahan: 07-08: 28-6-13-19; 08-09: 81-17-15-32; 09-10: 61-9-17-26 (season hampered by broken leg); 10-11: 82-14-20-34. While last season's 48 points in only 60 games represents a breakthrough for Callahan, it is important to remember that since 2008-09 Callahan has been averaging more minutes playing as part of the Rangers top-six while Foligno sees less ice team and has alternated between 2nd, 3rd, and 4th line duty during his time with the Senators, mostly finding a home on the 3rd line. Will Nick Foligno becomes the next Ryan Callahan? Maybe not, but with increased minutes and top-six opportunity, perhaps Foligno can produce at a similar level.

One final consideration: Nick is 24 years old and carries a salary of $1.55 million. Callahan is 26 and makes $4 million, Lucic is 23 and also makes $4 million, Clarkson is 27 and brings home $3 million, and Marchand is 23 and makes $2 million. Only Wayne Simmonds, aged 23, makes less than Foligno, and not by much (Simmonds' take home pay is $1.5 million). While Nick will undoubtedly receive a raise in his next contract, I believe he would come cheaper than Callahan, Lucic, and Clarkson and his new contract would probably be lower than new deals given to Marchand and Simmonds. In a cap world, this is significant. While the others looked at clearly have an advantage in terms of goals scored, Nick Foligno's production and salary should not be discounted.

Poll
Where should Nick Foligno play?
2nd Line, his chemistry with Alfie and Turris and points merit it
56 votes
3rd Line, leave the second line duties for Greening or Condra
11 votes
Somewhere else, Nick is trade bait and should be used acquire a top asset
18 votes

85 votes | Poll has closed

This FanPost was written by a member of the Silver Seven community, and does not necessarily reflect the beliefs or opinions of the site managers, editors, or Sports Blogs Nation, Inc.

Comment 23 comments  |  1 recs  | 

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You convinced me

I voted 2nd line, maybe because I’m easily swayed by whatever I read right before I have to make a decision on something. Good job! I also think Foligno merits appreciation for delivering huge hits on overrated defencemen and then pummelling them with his fists and hands.

by heybeerguy on Feb 22, 2012 1:16 PM EST reply actions  

As much as I like them

Both Michalek and Foligno should be considered trade bait if it means acquiring a 70+ point scoring winger.

by tugnutt'n'rhodes on Feb 22, 2012 1:46 PM EST reply actions  

Agreed

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by Mark Parisi on Feb 22, 2012 2:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Some interesting comparisons there

And yet, I can’t help but feel that the numbers don’t tell the whole story here. Callahan only has 7 more points than Foligno, yet I think if you took each player’s best shift from this year, you’d have a clear consensus of who you wanted on Turris’ wing—and it wouldn’t be Foligno.

In the end, I just don’t think Foligno is a top-six player at this point in his career. That’s not to say that he’ll never be (though I don’t think he will), but I think he’s kind of a bubble top-six guy: suitable there in a pinch, but not someone you’d want there long-term. Of course, I think the same is true of Greening and Condra, so I think based on that, Foligno has earned a shot to play with Turris and Alfie… at least, this year.

Considering his age and his contract, I certainly wouldn’t want him traded, unless (as tugnutt’n’rhodes mentions above) it was as part of a package to bring back a high-end scoring winger.

Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs

by Mark Parisi on Feb 22, 2012 2:21 PM EST reply actions  

I would agree with you

Callahan brings leadership and seems more clutch.

by Amelia L on Feb 22, 2012 5:28 PM EST up reply actions  

No reason to move Foligno

No one is going to knock our socks off with any return being offered for Foligno. He has somewhere closer to 3rd line numbers for a 4th line kind of salary, and shows flashes of brilliance at which time he can stand in temporarily on the second line.

It doesn’t look like we’re going to make any blockbusters right now, so there’s no reason to move Foligno unless he decides he wants to get paid like a top six forward.

by Marvellous on Feb 22, 2012 2:31 PM EST reply actions  

I love Paulrus' Mustache... But..

What is up with his love affair with role players in offensive situations? Why are Greening and Condra seeing 1st and 2nd line minutes over Foligno, and what in the WORLD is Chris Neil doing on the PP? It’s great that he gives “net front” presence, but he’s just brutal at getting set up in the zone.

Is it more that he’s trying to reward Greening, Condra and Neil? Or does he just not know what to do with Foligno to best maximize his skills?

by TsnFan on Feb 22, 2012 4:05 PM EST reply actions  

Love affair with role players...

I’ll answer your question about Paulrus’ modus operandi with the role players. Any coach can take a 4th line player and play him on a 4th line or a 3rd line player and play him on the 3rd line.

The best coach teaches a 4th line player to be a 3rd line player, and a 3rd line player to be a 2nd line player… and so on. I don’t always agree with his line combinations, especially with Greening and Condra, but look at how much these players have developed under Paulrus. The best coach develops the most number of players and has them excelling when crunch time hits.

All of this is regular season stuff is just practice for the real season when the puck drops in the playoffs and the more guys who have played up on the top six lines, the better we will be prepared when crunch time hits.

The reason Paulrus moves these role players around is because that’s how they learn to become better players. Any coach who just desperately plays only the best players all the time only succeds at burning them out.

Without 3rd and 4th liners who are excelling, we’d never win anything. A team with only one or two lines gets easily pushed out of the playoffs.

by Marvellous on Feb 23, 2012 2:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Foligno needs a creative line-mate

Playing down on 3rd/4th line is a waste imo. Foligno has impressed me with his puch possession and dangleisciousness (trademark). There’s offensive upside there that’s untapped. He actually reminds me of Spezza with the puck on periodically.

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by kdlishus on Feb 22, 2012 5:07 PM EST reply actions  

The thing is that since he's been moved to the fourth line, he's got three points in his last five games

And he’s actually on a two-game point streak.

Before that, he was minus-4 in his last three games with just five hits and four SOG. So, it doesn’t seem true that he needs a creative linemate to be successful. He’s been quite successful during his demotion. In fact, his whole line has.

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by Mark Parisi on Feb 22, 2012 5:27 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think he needs creative linemates either

Wouldn’t hurt I suppose, but he generates offense by forechecking and going to the net. I would just like to see him get a few more minutes a game.

by Amelia L on Feb 22, 2012 5:29 PM EST up reply actions  

As would I

But I don’t think he’s demonstrated any chemistry with anyone since Kovalev left. I don’t think we have a forward that meshes well with Alfie and Turris yet.

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by Mark Parisi on Feb 22, 2012 5:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Foligno is what he is.

Foligno is a good third line role player. He can provide energy when on the ice, forecheck and cycle and occasionally fight. Sounds like Chris Neil, Zach Smith and Colin Greening. Foligno does have better hands then these three, but he is not a 2nd line player.

With a goal and assist in tonight’s game, he has set a new career high in points with 36. Five seasons in the league and 36 is a career high. That is hardly the point total of a 2nd line player. Foligno is what he is.

The real problem with Foligno is not where he is playing but how much his next contract will be. He will not make Michalek money, but he is worth more than Neil. I think he will come in around 2.5 to 3 million on his next deal which would be the worst case scenario for Ottawa. How Ottawa got into trouble and were forced to move players last year was because they over paid for their role players (like Fisher and Kelly) and could not afford high priced talent. What Foligno brings to the table can be easily replaced by Greening and Smith. And with Zibanejad and Silfverberg coming next year, Foligno will be over priced for a third line player.

I say trade him and let him develop somewhere else for another teams cap space.

All Sens, All The Time!

by DA SENS on Feb 22, 2012 10:19 PM EST reply actions  

Firstly, this year is far from over and Foligno could easily and probably will put up 50 points. Secondly, Nicky’s first season was only a half season of which he played mostly on the fourth line. So really what you’re saying is that 50 points in a player’s 4th season isn’t good enough to be considered a second liner? Thirdly, the guy’s 24 years old. He is far from at his peak.

These three points are all important in showing that the title to your post is unequivocally wrong. Foligno is not what you make him out to be. He scores more than you’ve given him credit for, he has plenty of room to develop, and he’s a second liner on almost every team. Yes, his salary is a concern, but I think that your estimate of him making 2.5-3 mil is overly generous. He’ll sign a 3 year deal for 7 and neither side will be ecstatic, but they’ll be happy enough. Getting rid of Foligno before his next deal is something that we can’t afford to do with a limited amount of proven NHL talent. As much as people would like them to be Condra, Greening, and Daugavins are not established NHLers and frequently make the mistakes of first year players even though they are in their mid 20’s. Before we get rid of 24 year old’s with 4 years of NHL experience and 36 points in 62 games we should make sure that we have someone to replace them and Condra, Greening, Butler, or Daugavins haven’t done that yet.

by ojc on Feb 23, 2012 12:51 PM EST up reply actions  

When Foligno puts up 50 points, I'll be the first one to say I was wrong.

But I doubt he’ll hit 50 this season, let alone 20 goals. Look at Chris Neil at the same stage of his career where Foligno is now (“4th” season in, 24-25 yrs old). Neil put up 16 goals and 33 points compared to Foligno’s 13 goals and 36 points (granted, he will add to this total). Would you have said back then that Neil was a second line player and deserved more ice time?

Foligno is what he is, a good (to great) third line player that can get you 30 to 40 points. Look at the players he was compared to in this article, none of those teams would trade their players for Foligno.

And you said you would sign him for 3 yrs/ 7 million. I wouldn’t want Foligno at that number (2.333 mil) to have him play a bottom six role. In his 4 yrs plus here in Ottawa, Foligno has been given every chance to be a second line player. He just couldn’t cut it. And if you don’t believe that, then why did Ottawa go out and get Kyle Turris when Foligno was playing second line minutes?

All Sens, All The Time!

by DA SENS on Feb 23, 2012 3:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Why not?

They’re both third line energy players. They bring similar skills to the dance. Neil is a better hitter and fighter while Foligno has better hands. But they are both third line players that will bring energy to the game and scored between 20 to 40 points.

When you look at the argument, “ojc” is saying that a 24 yr old Foligno with 36 points deserves 2nd line opportunities. Then why didn’t a 24 yr old Neil with 33 points deserve it??

All Sens, All The Time!

by DA SENS on Feb 23, 2012 5:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Because in 2004, there was a lockout

HIYO!

But seriously, when Neil was 24, he didn’t deserve it because Ottawa’s top two lines were:

Heatley-Spezza-Alfredsson
Schaefer-Smolinski-Fisher (Havlat was out with an injury for most of the season)

And Chris Neil was not skilled enough to displace any of those six. The line between Foligno and Greening/Condra is a lot thinner than the line between Neil and his “competition.”

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by Mark Parisi on Feb 23, 2012 6:00 PM EST up reply actions  

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