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Should the Senators pursue Marek Zidlicky?

ST PAUL, MN - DECEMBER 29: Marek Zidlicky #3 of the Minnesota Wild controls the puck as Kyle Brodziak #21 of the Minnesota Wild and Anton Lander #57 of the Edmonton Oilers look on during the first period on December 29, 2011 at Xcel Energy Center in St Paul, Minnesota. (Photo by Hannah Foslien/Getty Images)

Although Bryan Murray seems to think the Ottawa Senators need a scoring forward more than anything else, I'm of the opinion that the biggest void on the Sens' roster is on the blue line.

Although Erik Karlsson is the team's top defender, he's still prone to mistakes once in a while, and he's just 21 years old. Jared Cowen is solid defensively, but he's also just 21, and he's in his first pro season--we can't expect miracles from him. Filip Kuba has had a great bounce-back season, but he's just solid--he won't do anything special, but he'll be there when you need him. Sergei Gonchar is putting up good points, but he's slow, and that exposes him to speedy opposition forwards and can force him to take penalties. Chris Phillips has had moments of solid play that have been largely overshadowed by many more moments of facepalm-worthy play. Neither Matt Carkner nor Brian Lee appear capable of playing a meaningful shift with any regularity. Consider the possibility of an injury to the top four (Karlsson, Cowen, Kuba, or Gonchar) and all of a sudden that D-corps looks mighty vulnerable, especially if the Senators are able to make the playoffs.

Which brings me to Marek Zidlicky. He's a very capable offensive defenceman who's on the outs with Mike Yeo's Minnesota Wild, and carries a cap hit of $4M for this season and next.

He's having an off-season this year (just 11A in 34GP, no goals), but his career average is better than one point every other game (0.54 P/GP). His plus-minus is pretty awful, but that might be expected from a player of his style. The Senators don't necessarily need another offensive defenceman, but they do need someone who can play a regular shift, and can provide something meaningful with some regularity. That someone might be Zidlicky.

Star-divide

Bryan Reynolds from the great Wild blog Hockey Wilderness offered this scouting report on Zidlicky, and a bit of a backstory explaining the defenceman's declining production:

"Zidlicky was brought in to be a boost to the Wild's offense from the blue line. His first two seasons were what you would expect from an offensive d-man. 40+ points, a plus minus that is wildly negative due to being a defensive liability while being put in roles he doesn't fit, such as a shut down defenseman under Todd Richards. That defensive liability is easy to overlook when he is putting points on the board.

"When Zidlicky missed a long stretch of time last year, his game changed. He was listed with a shoulder injury, and when he returned, the points were gone. His defensive play did not rise to balance his new lack of offense. A guy who is a liability, coupled with no goals and just 11 assists, is no longer worth the $4 million he is being paid.

"When Zidlicky was hurt this year (dirty hit from Lennart Petrell), the Wild played well without him. When he returned, the Wild went on a skid. When he was scratched by Mike Yeo, the Wild are back to winning. Is it a coincidence? Maybe, but it is awfully difficult to say there is no difference."

Zidlicky himself, though, claims he's simply not being used in the proper situations by Yeo. From Michael Russo's Russo's Rants:

"I can't be quiet," Zidlicky began during our sitdown [...]. "I think three games healthy scratch, it's more than just like a healthy scratch. [Yeo's] put me in this position that I am in right now. It's not easy for me. It's good for team probably because the guys played pretty well the last two games, but for me, I did everything what he wants me to do. I played like 17, 18 minutes ice time, I play just third, fourth line, I stood on the blue line, I didn't do anything what I did years before. He said everything I do with the puck and without the puck, it's wrong. So I have a little different opinion."

[...]

"He doesn't like what I'm doing," Zidlicky said. "If I'm an offensive player, I'm supposed to play with the top guys. He should show me, ‘You are that guy, and you will be out there the last minute when we need to score.' There was a lot of times when I just laid on the bench and just wait for my chance. We had a couple meetings about that after 10, 15 games in the season, and I can't change my style. That's what I know. That's for sure. He wants to play easy hockey. I tried everything what he wants, but apparently it doesn't work."

Obviously, things don't look very good between the two sides, and it seems less than likely that the situation will be easily remedied.

There are plenty of other defencemen out there who might be available. Pavel Kubina, Andy Sutton, Hal Gill, and Adrian Aucoin should all be available for a reasonable trade offer, and all are more defensively-oriented than Zidlicky--and with Karlsson, Gonchar, and Kuba in tow, the Senators probably need a penalty killer more than they need a powerplay specialist. Still, considering Zidlicky's contract status and the seemingly impassable divide between him and his coach, the asking price might be reasonable. Reynolds thinks the Wild would be looking for a top-six forward:

"With the situation, the price has to be lowered, right? Chuck Fletcher has hinted that he doesn't want to trade for picks, since that signals to the team he isn't serious about helping them make the playoffs. Though, with a semi-demand, it gives him an out if he needs it. My guess is Fletcher puts more value on Zidlicky than I do. I think Fletcher would want a late first round pick, high second round. If it is a second, my guess is he wants a player or prospect to go with it.

"If he is dead set on getting a player, it would need to be a top 6 guy. Doesn't have to be an elite guy, but a second liner leaning more toward the top line than the third line, if that makes sense. I hate to say it, but I'm not up on the Senators players, so you would have to come up with who that would be. A 20 goal guy who shoots would be my guess."

I'm doubtful the Wild would be able to ask for a genuine top-six player, considering Zidlicky's contract and the number of defencemen available--especially if Fletcher and Yeo want to move Zidlicky sooner rather than later. It seems more likely that a package could be put together to make the deal work out.

So what do you think, Sens fans: Should the Senators try to make a move for Marek Zidlicky?

Poll
Do you think the Senators should try to acquire Marek Zidlicky?
Yes, he's just what the team needs, and he'll be cheap.
49 votes
No, the team needs a defensive defenceman.
111 votes
No, the team needs a top-six forward.
55 votes
No, the team needs a depth forward.
10 votes
Other
32 votes

257 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 97 comments  |  0 recs  | 

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The team needs

a tough, defensive minded D who is more mobile and a better skater than
Phillips or Carkner (or Phillips or Lee). A Volchenkov like guy, or Gleason like guy.

With Gonchar, Kuba, and Karlsson, we have 3 better ‘offensively minded’ D who are already soft.

I saw Zids play in 06-07 and 07-08 when I lived in Nashville, and for the occassion offensive wizardry, there is is headache and frustration galore. Of the guys the Preds let go due to finances over the years, Vokoun, Hartnell, Timonen, maybe Hamhuis……one guy that is NEVER mentioned is Zids.

I was bothered by Phillips signing last year. Thank you contracts are nice but its not like the organization hasn’t been good to the guy, or Murray isn’t known for being good to his players (Fisher and Kelly both came out and said they were grateful for being put in good situations). Kuba and Jason Smith in 2009, Gonchar in 2010, Phillips in 2011………

I think Murray didn’t sign Volchenkov because he was on the right side of 30……

anyway, back to the point. No Zids.

"If you aren't diving, you aren't trying"-Jordin Tootoo
PekKarlsson: The genetic mutant solution to all of Nashville and Ottawa's problems. Shea and Alfie approve.

by PekKarlsson on Feb 2, 2012 7:25 AM EST reply actions  

Pour seconder

I am not in agreement with all of your post, mainly thank you contracts. But i can say that Zidlicky is on the wrong side of 30 for this to be good. Sorry.

by Bikini Cowboy on Feb 2, 2012 9:39 AM EST up reply actions  

I still hate this "thank you contract" thing

Let’s, for the moment, leave aside all argument about whether it really is a thank you contract (as opposed to signing a veteran player to lead and guide the glut of young defensemen coming through).

I think people don’t give Bryan Murray enough credit for carefully creating a perception around the league that Ottawa is an organisation that is good to its own. Small market teams aren’t going to land free agents or keep the players they develop if they don’t do this. Murray taking care of his boys may be the difference between Ottawa and Edmonton, who, as everyone knows, couldn’t sign a clown for a birthday party.

He was once called the worst participant Cirque du Soleil ever had.

by RogerTheShrubber on Feb 2, 2012 10:43 AM EST up reply actions  

It's true.

Especially since the local media has a reputation for tearing down stars they dislike ie Kovalev, Elliot, Heatley (although the latter may have deserved it). Hell, even Alfie until the last 2 years. Who wants to work in that pressure cooker?

by The Tif on Feb 2, 2012 12:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Letting Phillips walk like Redden

would not have hurt the teams rep for being good to its own.

Like I alluded to, Kelly and Fisher acknowledged that GMBM did them a huge favor.

And no one looks at Redden and thinks Ottawa wasn’t good to him, just because they weren’t willing to overpay for his previous years of service.

The Standard (Detroit) which I imagine GMBM and the Sens are trying to emulate to some degree (drafting Swedes, value picks, uptempo style w/Paulrus) includes value contracts, not thank you contracts.

Small market teams aren’t going to land free agents or keep the players they develop if they don’t do this

Which UFAs have we gained under GMBM because of the atmosphere supposedly cultivated by thank you contracts? Kovalev? Gonchar? Jason Smith?

Small market teams have to build and cultivate their own picks. The Sens were at there best before they wagered on splash UFAs, relying on their own and bit part role player pickups.

"If you aren't diving, you aren't trying"-Jordin Tootoo
PekKarlsson: The genetic mutant solution to all of Nashville and Ottawa's problems. Shea and Alfie approve.

by PekKarlsson on Feb 2, 2012 1:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Redden and Phillips shouldn’t be compared. Redden was making twice as much and was a huge liability. Him and Meszaros were on the ice for every goddamned goal against us.

And yes, we did get those UFAs. All of which were decent pickups at the time, despite the poor to middling results we had with them later. And you’re also referring mostly to UFAs picked up before Murray had done most of the “takes care of his guys” things that we’re talking about, so it’s a bit of a moot point.

It’s the building and cultivating your own picks that makes it important to be a “good place to play”. Otherwise, guys are going to finish their entry level contracts and boot it. Resigning the players we want is better than making UFA sigings. Also, we have a history of “hometown discounts”, which is a nice added bonus.

He was once called the worst participant Cirque du Soleil ever had.

by RogerTheShrubber on Feb 2, 2012 1:33 PM EST up reply actions  

I think it is a terrible idea to re-sign guys just because you want to make yourself seem attractive to others. Signing Phillips should have been based on if Murray thought he was capable of playing in the top 4 for 3 more years.

I love soft players (especially Europeans) that play on the perimeter. Enigmas are awesome. Grit and heart-and-soul are red flags.

Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan

by Adnan on Feb 2, 2012 1:50 PM EST up reply actions  

It would be, and I don’t think that’s what happened. I’m just saying I think there’s value in it that people don’t recognize.

He was once called the worst participant Cirque du Soleil ever had.

by RogerTheShrubber on Feb 2, 2012 2:07 PM EST up reply actions  

What’s the value? If I sign here and do well, then Bryan Murray will re-sign me at the end even if I suck near the end?

I don’t know if that’s the expectation we want to build.

I love soft players (especially Europeans) that play on the perimeter. Enigmas are awesome. Grit and heart-and-soul are red flags.

Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan

by Adnan on Feb 2, 2012 2:11 PM EST up reply actions  

You’re right. I was totally wrong when I supported that straw-man argument that you just knocked-over so effortlessly. ;)

He was once called the worst participant Cirque du Soleil ever had.

by RogerTheShrubber on Feb 2, 2012 2:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Totally concur

That building through your prospect system and youth is the way to make Ottawa a great franchise to play for, an annual contender; it worked for that most of those 11 consecutive playoff appearances, when the biggest UFA signing was maybe Hasek?

Also agree that UFA signings aren’t great for this franchise, at least to date, and especially under Murray.

Thankfully, Murray has done a great job of drafting and developing his picks, getting some college UFAs, and having some Muckler late round picks end up contributing……

Zidlicky, though, seems more of the same kind of D that hasn’t worked out previously. Pass.

"If you aren't diving, you aren't trying"-Jordin Tootoo
PekKarlsson: The genetic mutant solution to all of Nashville and Ottawa's problems. Shea and Alfie approve.

by PekKarlsson on Feb 2, 2012 1:54 PM EST up reply actions  

the Kanata Four

I was furious last year when BM signed Philips. Burke got rid of his Muskoka 5 faster than BM did his over priced, under-performing dogs and for the same reason because they create a bad culture on the team.
I placed Philips, Fisher, Alfredson, and Spezza in the Kanata 4 last year. OK, so I was wrong about two of them, who have had bounce back years thanks to good coaching. I think BM kept Philips for political reasons to maintain his grip on the dressing room.
Keep your eye on a repeat Super Bowl team on Sunday that is built on performance and re-built every year, Belichick’s way.

by XMAN69 on Feb 2, 2012 5:40 PM EST up reply actions  

I disagree. A lot.

1. The “Kanata Four” should not be compared with the Muskoka 5. The Leafs players were coasting and collectively decided not to waive their NTCs, effectively putting Toronto’s rebuild back years. None of the Sens players you name have ever been accused of being anything but loyal servants of the team.

2. You were really, really wrong about Alfie and Spezza, and not necessarily right about Fisher (who knows how he would have played under the Paulrus). So you effectively managed to predict that Chris Phillips was going to slow down. This may actually have been the worst analysis ever performed, and should not be used to validate any point other than “Being a GM is very difficult.”

3. Bill Belichick works in a fundamentally different set-up. It’s a league with no guaranteed contracts, and in which players have incredibly short careers. It’s almost impossible to compare the ways that you build effective football and hockey teams.

He was once called the worst participant Cirque du Soleil ever had.

by RogerTheShrubber on Feb 2, 2012 6:58 PM EST up reply actions  

If political reasons were BM's primary motivation...

… then I doubt Phillips would have been the only person kept. Fisher and Kelly were both very popular in the dressing room, and they were dealt away.

He probably kept Phillips for two reasons. First, a belief that he would bounce back, which hasn’t happened yet. Second, perhaps there wasn’t a suitable market out there for him, and BM (and his staff) decided Phillips’ value to the team moving forward was greater than the value of whatever assets were offered in exchange.

by Peter Raaymakers on Feb 3, 2012 8:34 AM EST up reply actions  

Also

Phillips lives in Manotick, not Kanata, & Spezza lives in Wellington West.
Kanata 4 is down to 2….

Common sense is the most evenly distributed quality in all the world.
Everyone thinks they have enough.

by havey03 on Feb 3, 2012 10:47 AM EST up reply actions  

I voted other

I still think the team should trade Kuba. I don’t think sending him out and getting back a second round pick for him will hurt the team or its playoff hopes. I think Cowen would admirably fill in with Kuba gone as he did earlier in the season, and it would give Borowiecki, Gryba &/or Wiercioch the opportunity to play some meaningful NHL games which I believe will go a long way towards their development.
I realize that by trading Kuba, it sends the wrong message to the team however, If BM is able to trade Kuba, and make one other trade brining in a top line winger, the message becomes positive.

Common sense is the most evenly distributed quality in all the world.
Everyone thinks they have enough.

by havey03 on Feb 2, 2012 7:32 AM EST reply actions  

Agreed

Alot can change b/w now and the deadline. If the Sens struggle and fall out of the top 8, I would think Kuba could net AT LEAST a 2nd (Campoli got a 2nd last year)….with Gleason, Suter, and possibly others off the market, Hal Gill and Kuba become good short-term adds for legit contenders. Like you said, Cowen can step in with Karlsson, but then who takes Cowen’s minutes?
Gonchar-?
Phillips-Carkner/Lee is already a drawback, do the Sens promote one of them to play with Gonchar? Call up the best of Gryba, Boroweicki, or Wiercioch to play in the bottom pair?
What’s Brett Lebda up to these days (KIDDING)

Murray has made some questionable decisions regarding veteran D. Trading a first for Campoli (when the team was going to miss the playoffs), signing Kuba at the 2009 deadline (when trade value was highest), Jason Smith as a 2009 UFA, Gonchar in 2010 (what mentoring had he really done for Karlsson?), Phillips in 2011 (again, how many mentors do the young guys need? And how many roster spots/cap space are you gonna devote to mentors?)……trading Kuba balances out some of those decisions.

Its up to the players this next month. If they rebound and play well (really, without Anderson, they may have won 3-4 games in January instead of 8), and give GMBM a reason to add, I am fine with that, too. If they slip, to 8th/9th and continue to trend downwards, the right thing to do is move Kuba. Not too worried about the message; the players dealt just fine with the mass exodus last year and its message (We. are. horrible), so I think the players will be fine with the message (it was a nice early season run, but looks this ain’t the year, lets reload for next year) after a theoreritically poor Feb.

I think GMBM should leave it up to the players the next month. Maximize’s Kuba’s value anyway, waiting to the last minute.

"If you aren't diving, you aren't trying"-Jordin Tootoo
PekKarlsson: The genetic mutant solution to all of Nashville and Ottawa's problems. Shea and Alfie approve.

by PekKarlsson on Feb 2, 2012 8:38 AM EST up reply actions  

Trade him for what?

Trade him for Zidlicky? Or for picks or prospects?

by Peter Raaymakers on Feb 2, 2012 9:32 AM EST up reply actions  

Trade Kuba for a 2nd round pick

Common sense is the most evenly distributed quality in all the world.
Everyone thinks they have enough.

by havey03 on Feb 2, 2012 2:19 PM EST up reply actions  

I voted no

This team needs someone on the back end who scares the shit out of opposing players… someone like A-Train; a guy who will make sure guys keep their heads up and behave themselves in front of the net. I was expecting that out of Carkner this year, but I think that surgery ended his effectiveness.

What we don’t need is another defensive liability. That would turn into a nightmare for us, and rather quickly.

I can’t be alone in wanting an Andy Sutton-type player back on this team… even if it’s not THE Andy Sutton. Somebody who will smear forwards along the boards, and pick them up in front of the net, and throw them into a corner, like so much unwanted trash, cluttering up Andy’s crease.

ALFIE! ALFIE! ALFIE!

by BigSlice on Feb 2, 2012 8:34 AM EST reply actions  

Carkner is probably going to get that aspect of his game back

Rather like other guys on the team who weren’t very effective until well after their surgery – Michalek and Kuba, to name two.

If the Sens don’t trade Carkner, I hope they re-sign him. I believe that he will recover some of his game once he’s had an off-season to recuperate from surgery. He had the surgery pretty close to the start of the season, didn’t he?

by JonathanA on Feb 2, 2012 9:20 AM EST up reply actions  

It would make little sense NOT to re-sign Carkner, if they don't trade him

I’m not sure if other teams will be looking his way in free agency, but I don’t think there will be too many. Carkner is capable on the third pairing, accepts the role of a depth defenceman, is from the area and is terrific in the community.

by Peter Raaymakers on Feb 2, 2012 9:35 AM EST up reply actions  

Agreed.

He’s one of those guys who won’t net much of a return, and is a great depth guy for the organization. Plus I think he’d take a reasonable salary to stay in Ottawa.

by The Tif on Feb 2, 2012 10:37 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't think A-Train ever scared opponents

His hits were big, but he didn’t throw very many of them. His physicality was more getting in the way of shots and tying up opposition players in the corners. It was physically taxing, but not physically punishing—and certainly not intimidating.

by Peter Raaymakers on Feb 2, 2012 9:34 AM EST up reply actions  

Youtube videos disagree

I mean, its all relative. I guy like Dan Girardi may throw more hits, but Volchenkov had many more highlight reel hits. Like Sutton, I am sure folks were aware of when he was on the ice, relative to other D.

He wasn’t Scott Stevens (no one today is), but he was closer to that end of the spectrum than most D in the League today, relative to the other end of more positional ‘non-hitting’ D(Kuba, Gonchar, Karlsson).

A quick google search that lists heavy hitters in the NHL
has three such lists, and all three include Volchenkov (and others who deserve their reps as big hitters, whether its Tootoo, Orpik, Lucic, Neil, Kronwall, Phaneuf, Douglas Murray, Brown)

http://dansallows.com/hockeys-hardest-hitters-top-10-nhl-hitters/
http://thehockeywriters.com/top-15-hitters-in-the-nhl/
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/496130-nhl-power-rankings-all-30-nhl-teams-heaviest-hitters#/articles/496130-nhl-power-rankings-all-30-nhl-teams-heaviest-hitters/page/19

I don’t think the A-train nickname came from blocking shots, even though he was certainly known for that too.

"If you aren't diving, you aren't trying"-Jordin Tootoo
PekKarlsson: The genetic mutant solution to all of Nashville and Ottawa's problems. Shea and Alfie approve.

by PekKarlsson on Feb 2, 2012 9:53 AM EST up reply actions  

Fair enough

I certainly agree that he was called A-Train for his hitting, and I loved it when he’d hit opponents. I just didn’t get the impression that he did it too often, but maybe I’m just not giving him enough credit.

Make no mistake, I’m a huge fan of Volchenkov. If we could bring him back, I’d be totally stoked.

by Peter Raaymakers on Feb 2, 2012 10:20 AM EST up reply actions  

So would I

It is unreasonable for us to ever bring back Hossa or Chara back to the Sens,
but guys like Kelly, Volchenkov…who knows?

"If you aren't diving, you aren't trying"-Jordin Tootoo
PekKarlsson: The genetic mutant solution to all of Nashville and Ottawa's problems. Shea and Alfie approve.

by PekKarlsson on Feb 2, 2012 12:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Agree Agree Agree!!!

enough with this A-train,,,great at blocking shots, Average D- no way does he warrant the price tag

by SensSational19 on Feb 2, 2012 12:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Per dollar spent

isn’t he more valuable than Gonchar, Kuba, and Phillips?

I think he warrants the price tag, perhaps not the term, as his type of player would figure to wear down, get injured.

That rough and tumble element is also somewhat of a commodity in the League, and on the Sens blueline. Similar type guys like Gryba and Borocop may never be top pair, shutdown D; its rare to have a guy like Volchenkov who could skate well enough to do so.

"If you aren't diving, you aren't trying"-Jordin Tootoo
PekKarlsson: The genetic mutant solution to all of Nashville and Ottawa's problems. Shea and Alfie approve.

by PekKarlsson on Feb 2, 2012 1:08 PM EST up reply actions  

I think that's too nebulous to say

It all depends on how you determine value.

Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs

by Mark Parisi on Feb 2, 2012 1:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Some subjectivity, sure

I do think, perhaps with the benefit of hindsight, the team would have been better off keeping Volchenkov in the place of any of the following moves:

re-signing Kuba at the 2009 deadline (his value would never be that high again), getting Smith and Gonchar as UFAs, and re-signing Phillips to a market deal (wasn’t even a hometown discount!!!) at the 2011 deadline, when he was valued by several teams.

There is a place for soft, easy to play against, puck moving PP specialist veterans (and there is debate how good Gonchar and Kuba are in this role), or declining mile-heavy mentor D (Phillips and Smith) but there is also a place for guys like Volchenkov.

Its weird that GMBM signed four of them to market (or above market) contracts, but not Volchenkov, given his unique skill set. Puck movers are premium value, you keep em once you got em (unless they are David Rundblad), but so too for guys like Volch.

I don’t think this is a Chara vs. Redden travesty, but there are only so many guys like A-train, and a few guys like Zidlicky around. Even if GMBM felt a need for a mid-season puck mover, he could always trade a first round pick for a guy like Campoli, right?

"If you aren't diving, you aren't trying"-Jordin Tootoo
PekKarlsson: The genetic mutant solution to all of Nashville and Ottawa's problems. Shea and Alfie approve.

by PekKarlsson on Feb 2, 2012 1:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, I agree

I would have preferred to keep Android to signing Gonchar, especially given that the “make them block more shots” thing.

But when you start talking about “value per dollar spent” it ALL depends on what you mean by value. Kuba this year, for instance, is better than Volchenkov in points, blocked shots, TOI, and plus/minus. The only statistical category where Volchenkov beats Kuba is hits, and it’s not even close. Considering that Kuba’s salary is less than Volchenkov’s, I think you’d have a hard time making the case that Android is more valuable per dollar spent than Kuba (this year, anyway)—unless you limited your argument to hits. And doing that would be a blatant misrepresentation of stats to fit an argument.

Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs

by Mark Parisi on Feb 2, 2012 4:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Kuba has had a great year

and no doubt this year, worth 3.5 M.

But does one good year make up for one horrible year and one middling to decent year (the Olympic year)?

Even if Android/A-train had 0 points, I would think, as a PK specialist and shutdown D, he is worth his weight over a 5 yr/20 M contract. Of course, while he is younger, he is an injury risk waiting to happen.

Interesting that Kuba has more blocked shots than Volchenkov…..while Kuba certainly has gotten in front of alot of pucks, I think that is partially RTSS bias…there was an article on the SB nation devils site, around when A train signed, that pointed out that the Devils home scoring was very stringent with blocked shots.

Its a shame that hits and blocked shots and takeaways (which could be decent and telling stats) are not better normalized from building to building.

"If you aren't diving, you aren't trying"-Jordin Tootoo
PekKarlsson: The genetic mutant solution to all of Nashville and Ottawa's problems. Shea and Alfie approve.

by PekKarlsson on Feb 2, 2012 6:12 PM EST up reply actions  

It's definitely a fair question.

Kuba has been a better value than Volchenkov this year. But does that erase the stain of last year?

They played similar numbers of games in ‘09 and ’10. In ’09, Android dominated Kuba everywhere but points. In ’10, they were closer: 104 blocks in 64 games for Kuba versus 106 in 57 for Volchenkov. Kuba’s 16 points doubled Volchenkov, but he was an atrocious minus-26 to Android’s plus-3. Ottawa could have used 29 more goals last year, that’s for sure.

In the end, I think like you said: it’s a shame that stats in general aren’t more normalized—I think I’d rather have Volchenkov on my PK than Kuba every game while they could both skate—because it’s difficult to compare players when your data isn’t consistent. That makes it hard to say for sure who’s the better value.

All told, I’d rather have Volchenkov.

Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs

by Mark Parisi on Feb 2, 2012 6:23 PM EST up reply actions  

I kind of agree with the 'make them block more shots' thing, upon consideration

Blocked shots aren’t a good thing; when you’re forced to block a shot, it means you don’t have possession of the puck, which means you aren’t getting a scoring chance.

I assume when Murray said that, he meant his thought process in acquiring Gonchar was to build the Senators up as a puck-possession team, instead of whatever they were in the final two years with Volchenkov (a terrible team, I guess you could say). He used a measure that’s symptomatic of less puck possession than actually citing puck possession made it less clear, but I think it might have been clear in his head (or in the heads of members of his staff).

A huge part of the problem with the Phillips-Volchenkov pairing was an inability to effectively move the puck out of the defensive zone. Because neither of the two defenders were good at moving the puck up the ice, the forwards had to come all the way back and support the defencemen deep in the defensive zone, so that by the time the puck was finally freed and moved up the ice, the forwards were so tired that they had to dump the puck in and get off the ice. It was a recipe for disaster, and that’s why the seasons were so disappointing.

Murray estimated he’d get better value out of Phillips than Volchenkov, I think, and… well, that’s not working out yet, but Volchenkov still has a lot of years and a lot of dollars left on his contract.

by Peter Raaymakers on Feb 3, 2012 8:40 AM EST up reply actions  

I think Phillips/Volchenkov was great when the forwards were elite and we didn’t need to rely on the defence for offence/getting the puck out. It became a problem once the forwards became worse.

I love soft players (especially Europeans) that play on the perimeter. Enigmas are awesome. Grit and heart-and-soul are red flags.

Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan

by Adnan on Feb 3, 2012 9:49 AM EST up reply actions  

I'd have to agree

Except that I don’t feel that we’ve become a puck-possession team. We routinely allow 30 or more shots in a game, and more of them are finding their way to the net.

Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs

by Mark Parisi on Feb 3, 2012 9:56 AM EST up reply actions  

Borowiecki

Common sense is the most evenly distributed quality in all the world.
Everyone thinks they have enough.

by havey03 on Feb 2, 2012 2:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Did you see him in his second game in Ottawa?

I have high hopes that he’ll turn into a good defender for the Sens in the relatively near future, but I don’t think he’s a full-time everyday NHLer just yet.

by Peter Raaymakers on Feb 2, 2012 4:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed he played poorly and looked unsure of himself

He played like he was afraid to make a mistake.

All that can be coached out of a player with ice-time, situational play & practice. And having the coach put you back out there when you’ve made a mistake.

But, if he’s not getting it done, Gryba is available, and Wiercioch is playing again and should be back in game shape soon.

Common sense is the most evenly distributed quality in all the world.
Everyone thinks they have enough.

by havey03 on Feb 3, 2012 10:52 AM EST up reply actions  

And he’s getting ice time, situational play, and practice in Binghamton. That’s the point of an AHL affiliate: Give a player his opportunity to grow and learn without risking NHL success.

by Peter Raaymakers on Feb 3, 2012 11:23 AM EST up reply actions  

He has done so at the AHL level.

But at some point, he will need to make the transition to the NHL. He isn’t just going to wake up one morning NHL ready. It is a process. Exposure to the NHL game, and getting an opportunity to get rid of the nerves and he’ll be fine. It will take him a few games to gain his comfort zone here. Just because he played 2 games and looked lost in the second one doesn’t mean he can’t play NHL hockey. That game was just one in a process.

Common sense is the most evenly distributed quality in all the world.
Everyone thinks they have enough.

by havey03 on Feb 3, 2012 12:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Borowiecki hasn't even played a full season down there yet

What’s the rush? It’s not like his development is stagnating. He still has things to learn down there, so he might as well learn as much as he can before starting to learn things at the next step.

More importantly, though, i don’t want a defenceman learning the ropes while we’re fighting for a playoff spot. There’s too much to lose when he inevitably makes mistakes.

by Peter Raaymakers on Feb 3, 2012 3:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Defensive dman required

Yes, we need a defenceman. Offensive-minded is OK but defensive prowess is what we need. Goalies get hung out to dry way too often resulting in lofty GAAs. How many offensive defencemen do we need?

Although I really like Chris Phillips the man, the dman is long past his prime, and resigning him for longer than one year was a huge mistake. He’s now a #5 dman, with a NTC and way too large a contract for what he brings. If we needed a veteran to teach the young dman, we needed a veteran who would demonstrate effective defence… and he hasn’t done that nearly enough. We should have said thank you to him by offering him a management spot.

I voted for a defensive dman. I haven’t watched Zidlicky close enough to say how good he is defensively.

I say that we should continue trying to draft a stud physical defensive dman, even though the organization seems to think we are so deep in dmen. I see alot of #5 and 6 potential and no one in Bingo who can replace Phillips or Gonchar…. and Karlsson and Cowen are great. We especially need a stud defender to go with Karlsson and allow him to do what he does.

BM keeps lusting after another scoring forward, and as Peter said, that isn’t our biggest void.

by Marvellous on Feb 2, 2012 8:48 AM EST reply actions  

Zidlicky has zero goals this year and is supposed to be an offensive dman. He has been in the minuses for the last 5 years. IMO, that’s not the sort of defender we need at $4 million per.

by Marvellous on Feb 2, 2012 8:54 AM EST reply actions  

He's having an off-year this year, and admits as much

The question is whether he’s having an off-year because Yeo’s not using him properly, or because he’s just not as good as he used to be.

by Peter Raaymakers on Feb 2, 2012 9:38 AM EST up reply actions  

I voted Top-6 forward

I don’t know, perhaps I just don’t have the right sens-coloured glasses, but I’m just not seeing either of Greening or Condra on the top line with Spezza and Michalek. While Spezza has had a great year, I often watch games and think he’s doing it in spite of having Greening on his line.

I would love to see them get a player who can play with Spezza, has a decent shot, soft hands and a bit of nasty to his game. Greening is fast, has an okay shot, but has hands of stone and absolutely no nastiness to his game. He’s just an incredibly nice guy.

Anyway, top six forward is my bet.

by TsnFan on Feb 2, 2012 9:01 AM EST reply actions  

That's what I voted

I think Greening and Condra could be exceptional third-liners, but as much as I love them, I don’t think they belong in the top six.

Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs

by Mark Parisi on Feb 2, 2012 9:50 AM EST up reply actions  

Such a good question

I keep wondering the exact same thing about a bunch of these young guys: they are doing well, and as relative rookies (a year or two in) they could project out as studs…but are they for real? Are Greening, Condra, Foligno (still surprisingly young), and Z Smith 3rd liners with upside, or bona fide top 6 guys? It’s also messy because if you change the line you change the game they play…

I guess the answer is that one or two end up on 2nd, and rest on 3rd/4th, but it must be really hard for the sens to project out the forwards, since these young guys are all problematic with upside, and then there’s a bunch of prospects coming up right behind them….

by Cam on Feb 2, 2012 4:24 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not sold on Zidlicky.

I particularly don’t care for the presumed asking price, nor for Zidlicky’s contract. Just because the team has room to take on a bad contract, doesn’t mean it should. (At the moment I think the Sens have only two clunkers, Gonchar’s and Phillips’s.)

If Murray can swing another deal that gets a young guy, like what he did to acquire Turris, I’d be fine with that, but if the Sens are going to pick up a defenseman I’d rather they wait until free agency when they can sign someone without giving up assets in return – of course the risk then is that they will overpay.

by JonathanA on Feb 2, 2012 9:26 AM EST reply actions  

Considering the circumstances...

I’d be surprised if Zidlicky brought in a return like that. Expensive contract with another year on it, diminishing results, potentially difficult player, defensive liability… assuming Yeo can’t find space for Zidlicky, the Wild will just want to get rid of him. They’ll take the best offer out there, and I don’t think that will be a first- or second-liner.

But hey, I guess we’ll see. It sure looks like he’s on his way out, though.

by Peter Raaymakers on Feb 2, 2012 9:40 AM EST up reply actions  

My thinking...

Was trading either Kuba or Gonchar for Zidlicky. The reason why I didn’t suggest this in the story (aside from wanting to keep my opinions out of it as much as possible) was because it doesn’t actually help the team’s depth.

If we trade Kuba for Zidlicky, we get a capable defender for one extra year at a lower salary than we’d likely pay in free agency this season.

If we trade Gonchar for Zids, we get a slightly younger defenceman who’s cheaper, and isn’t much more of a liability defensively.

by Peter Raaymakers on Feb 2, 2012 9:45 AM EST reply actions  

Never get better value than now

I like that idea of trading Kuba and / or Gonchar. We’ll never get better value than right now, and we need more draft picks to shore up the defence and goaltending.

by Marvellous on Feb 2, 2012 11:20 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree with the "after this year" part - though not necessarily Zidlicky

The Sens are not contenders. I think our daily exercise of questioning whether so-and-so player is worth trading for makes the wrongful assumption that we should be trading for anyone.

I vote for trading for no one before the deadline, and possibly selling high on a few guys (including, perhaps, Kuba). Prices are a lot lower in the summer. If we need to bring in new players, let’s do the rebuild properly and buy low.

He was once called the worst participant Cirque du Soleil ever had.

by RogerTheShrubber on Feb 2, 2012 10:07 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, I don't really need it to be Zidlicky

But Kuba needs to be replaced. I don’t care whether it’s by trade or by free agency—I just don’t want to force Cowen into a role before he’s ready.

Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs

by Mark Parisi on Feb 2, 2012 10:50 AM EST up reply actions  

I'd be shocked if Kuba was resigned. But at the same time, a two year deal would be great.

If he continues his play and mentoring Karlsson along with Gonchar, it buys our young guys another year of development time.

Never thought I’d ever advocate resigning Kuba.

by The Tif on Feb 2, 2012 12:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Me either

I still don’t think I’d like it. I don’t think his skill set is particularly unique. I’m pretty sure Karlsson would excel with any defenseman who did what Kuba does this year: make a decent first pass, block a lot of shots, and cover for your partner.

Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs

by Mark Parisi on Feb 2, 2012 12:58 PM EST up reply actions  

I think Cowen is ready

I don’t think he’s being forced into a role at all. Every level he’s played at, he’s ended up playing 30 minutes a game, and was even doing that this year for a few games. Cowen can bring it!

Common sense is the most evenly distributed quality in all the world.
Everyone thinks they have enough.

by havey03 on Feb 2, 2012 2:26 PM EST up reply actions  

COWEN! WHAT IS BEST IN LIFE!

TO CRUSH YOUR ENEMIES! SEE THEM DRIVEN BEFORE YOU! AND HEAR THE LAMENTATIONS OF THEIR WOMEN GOALIES!

by The Tif on Feb 2, 2012 4:11 PM EST up reply actions  

I think if Cowen were ready, he'd be playing there instead of Kuba

One day he’ll be ready—I think he’s shown that—but he’s not there yet.

Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs

by Mark Parisi on Feb 2, 2012 4:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Thats kind of my argument

Kuba’s still playing because he is playing well, Kuba is at max value. Once he’s moved, Cowen is ready to step in. I’m not suggesting he won’t have bad games, and he won’t make some mistakes. However, Cowen admirable filled in when Kuba was injured earlier this season. He did it for 5 games, no reason to think he’ can’t do it for 25.

Common sense is the most evenly distributed quality in all the world.
Everyone thinks they have enough.

by havey03 on Feb 3, 2012 10:55 AM EST up reply actions  

That's where we disagree, I guess

I think there’s plenty of reason to think he can’t do it for 25—namely, that he hasn’t been able to repeat that level of play since those five games. Playing on a second pairing against easier competition should make it easier for him to continue to play at the same high level we saw in those five games, but it hasn’t happened.

Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs

by Mark Parisi on Feb 3, 2012 11:25 AM EST up reply actions  

Hal Gill?

What about Hal Gill? Is he fast enough to help us?

The Habs may be desperate enough to hand over Gill for some potential offence… 36 years old… $2.2 million, or did he leave his best hockey in Pittsburgh?

He played some good shutdown hockey in Pittsburgh and in the playoffs with the Habs. How come he went to Montreal for so little salary?

by Marvellous on Feb 2, 2012 9:49 AM EST reply actions  

Can we have a new Sens fan law...

that we don’t write in to Kerry Fraser with our referee-conspiracy theories?

For one, it seems unlikely that he’s going to agree with us. Also, and more importantly, it makes us all look like idiots.

He was once called the worst participant Cirque du Soleil ever had.

by RogerTheShrubber on Feb 2, 2012 10:35 AM EST reply actions  

You mean, complainers like Leafs fans.

I was looking for an excuse to our last loss and blamed the refs, but really, there is no conspiracy. I do believe we take too many undisciplined minors and maybe do not pressure enough to draw penalties. Every fan base bitches about the refs, but I rather we don’t.

by whatsinaname on Feb 2, 2012 10:55 AM EST up reply actions  

Can we please stop the ref conspiracy stuff

Let’s just play better and stop whining about the refs. We cannot win whining about the refs, and it’ll only get worse the more we feed that theory.

by Marvellous on Feb 2, 2012 10:58 AM EST up reply actions  

I've never once bought into the whole "conspiracy" thing...

But I can’t help but feel slighted by the refs during the past few games. I’m not saying it’s a league-wide conspiracy, like some fans are, but there has to be some sort of bias against Ottawa… even if it IS only by a ref or two.

For Fraser to say that there was only ONE uncalled penalty against Boston is horseshit… we know it, and I’m sure even he knows it. That’s like asking a cop to say another cop did a bad job; these guys stick together.

We’re undisciplined, yes. I totally agree with that. But Boston is dirty and sneaky… and have been rewarded for it.

I just want fairness and equality… is that too much to ask?

ALFIE! ALFIE! ALFIE!

by BigSlice on Feb 2, 2012 11:08 AM EST up reply actions  

No, it's not.

Just be careful who you ask it of.

“Hello, guy from a small brotherhood of persecuted individuals, now working for a network that has never particularly favoured the fanbase on behalf of whom I write.

I am writing in hopes that you will break ranks with the thin stripy line and condemn some of your brothers with the worst accusation possible in that profession, which would totally discredit the league and sport in which you have, and continue to, make your living."

There was only one possible answer. So all it does is let him, and our more populous neighbouring markets, make a laughingstock of us.

He was once called the worst participant Cirque du Soleil ever had.

by RogerTheShrubber on Feb 2, 2012 11:21 AM EST up reply actions  

Oh, I wasn't expecting a different result...

And I certainly wasn’t obtuse enough to write in and ask for one. As soon as I read the headline on his article, I knew what I was in for. It IS embarrassing as a Sens fan to have this out there like it is now.

I don’t expect anyone to publicly acknowledge any wrong-doing… but I would VERY MUCH like the league to step in privately, and tell the refs to get their shit together, because it’s becoming obvious to casual fans, and fanatics like us.

ALFIE! ALFIE! ALFIE!

by BigSlice on Feb 2, 2012 11:25 AM EST up reply actions  

Sorry, that wan’t directed at you, just the “is that too much to ask?”

Maybe the league could just step in and have a different referee do one of our games? Preferably the one on Saturday night.

He was once called the worst participant Cirque du Soleil ever had.

by RogerTheShrubber on Feb 2, 2012 11:27 AM EST up reply actions  

They're big.

Dirty to me is a Cooke-like player or diving like Vancouver. Boston just pummels you.

Or runs over your goalie :P

by The Tif on Feb 2, 2012 4:15 PM EST up reply actions  

I want to trade for David Rundblad

I love soft players (especially Europeans) that play on the perimeter. Enigmas are awesome. Grit and heart-and-soul are red flags.

Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan

by Adnan on Feb 2, 2012 10:53 AM EST reply actions  

LOL...

Phoenix might be willing to take a chance on a young guy like Turris in exchange for the soon-to-be-offensive-powerhouse in Rundblad.

ALFIE! ALFIE! ALFIE!

by BigSlice on Feb 2, 2012 11:11 AM EST up reply actions  

Do it Murray!

I love soft players (especially Europeans) that play on the perimeter. Enigmas are awesome. Grit and heart-and-soul are red flags.

Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan

by Adnan on Feb 2, 2012 11:12 AM EST up reply actions  

Adnan for GM!

… or PM, but I’m pretty sure a GM job pays better than being the Prime Minister.

ALFIE! ALFIE! ALFIE!

by BigSlice on Feb 2, 2012 11:15 AM EST up reply actions  

I’d be a great GM. I’d put up a team of offensively-minded soft players. We’d outskate and outskill the other teams!

And even if we lose, it would be an entertaining loss!

I love soft players (especially Europeans) that play on the perimeter. Enigmas are awesome. Grit and heart-and-soul are red flags.

Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan

by Adnan on Feb 2, 2012 11:16 AM EST up reply actions  

You'd need a roster of 40 guys every night.

Because without a tough guy, who keeps everyone else honest?

by The Tif on Feb 2, 2012 12:07 PM EST up reply actions  

They’ll be fine without anyone keeping people “honest”. ;)

I love soft players (especially Europeans) that play on the perimeter. Enigmas are awesome. Grit and heart-and-soul are red flags.

Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan

by Adnan on Feb 2, 2012 12:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes

Let’s give them Gonchar!

Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs

by Mark Parisi on Feb 2, 2012 1:15 PM EST up reply actions  

DONE!

I love soft players (especially Europeans) that play on the perimeter. Enigmas are awesome. Grit and heart-and-soul are red flags.

Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan

by Adnan on Feb 2, 2012 1:51 PM EST up reply actions  

May be we can do both...

Get a stay at home edgy D man and a top 6 FWD with one swing.

But the need is on D in my opinion. That’s the priority. If there is nothing out there, i wouldn’t force it and stand pat and/or not deviate from the original plan going into the season.

"Subdue the enemy without fighting" ~ Sun Tzu

by kdlishus on Feb 2, 2012 11:18 AM EST reply actions  

Let's get Phanuf!

Drew Brees- the REAL MVP.

by Alex Swift on Feb 2, 2012 11:21 AM EST reply actions  

No...

just, no…

I see no need for an offensive D-man who isn’t very offensive… OR a big, strong brute who takes names and kicks ass, who then gets beaten buy a third/second-liner like Foligno.

ALFIE! ALFIE! ALFIE!

by BigSlice on Feb 2, 2012 11:26 AM EST up reply actions  

Haha, I think he was kidding.

Of course, if he wasn’t, my reaction would be the same as yours.

by JonathanA on Feb 2, 2012 11:28 AM EST up reply actions  

Oh, I'm sure he was...

But that’s just not funny on any level. My brain hurt just imagining it.

ALFIE! ALFIE! ALFIE!

by BigSlice on Feb 2, 2012 11:29 AM EST up reply actions  

Zidilicki....

Didn’t we trade a younger version of this guy away a couple weeks ago (david something or other…)

by ktronics on Feb 3, 2012 9:13 PM EST reply actions  

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