Would Zibanajad, Foligno and 2012 #1 Pick... get Nash???
by SensSational19 on Feb 13, 2012 7:27 PM EST
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5 hours ago it was reported Nash could be heading to NY:
Analyzing the offer Garrioch claims “may get it done,” Dubinsky is a nice, gritty compliment to the Jackets but by no means replaces Nash’s production. If Kreider is the real deal, thought of as a potential 30-goal scorer in the NHL along with his lightning-quick speed, he’s still a couple seasons away from the NHL level. The first-round draft pick they would receive from the Rangers would be towards the bottom of the round: hardly the chance to receive an impact-player. Does that deal make sense for the Blue Jackets? Not at all.
Realistically, Howson’s offer to trade away its franchise player would look more like this: Artem Anisimov, Chris Kreider, Dylan McIlrath/Tim Reixon and a first-round pick. If you’re Glen Sather, you thank Howson for his time and move on. If the Blue Jackets are going to trade Rick Nash, and it’s a big if, it’s going to be in the offseason when they can establish the proper market for him, rather than hastily dealing him during the season.
As for the Rangers, adding Rick Nash to their roster, assuming you don’t break up the team to get him, would be a welcomed addition of supreme offensive talent. However, the money ($7.8 million per year through 2017-2018 according to capgeek) and the logistics make this nothing more than a pipe dream to think Rick Nash will be a New York Ranger.
Should Murray make an offer??
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It could...
…but I wouldn’t cut Zibanejad loose, as much as I would love to see a Nash-Spezza LW-C combo. If the opportunity presented itself, I’d sooner include Michalek in a package for a more consistent scoring winger.
by tugnutt'n'rhodes on Feb 13, 2012 7:37 PM EST reply actions
I don't know if he SHOULD make an offer
But I think he should definitely find out the asking price.
I’d hate to part with Zibanejad, though. I’d rather give up Stone.
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The time to deal Zibanejad is now
A guy who rocketed up draft boards from 2 months of strong play and since then hasn’t exhibited the type of physical play and drive that resulted in that ascension. He looks great for scoring the gold medal winning goal at the world juniors, but he was largely overshadowed on that team by Frieberg and Forsberg. He’s a good piece, but aside from my scepticism where does he fit on this team? Does he take over as our second line centre? I would say probably not, Turris has looked exceptional in that role and MacLean thinks the lack of training camp has really hindered him. Does he fit in as our third line centre? I think the physical play and 12 goals Zach Smith has provided from that position.
I think the piece from this deal that we shouldn’t be parting with is Foligno. A guy who leads our team in hits and when given an opportunity has produced offensively. I would be extremely wary of dealing Foligno.
Columbus needs to do something, so it seems like the ball is in everyone else’s court. If Howson doesn’t make a move he’s fired. He wants to keep his job, so he’ll make some kind of move. That doesn’t mean he’ll trade Nash, but that door is opening faster every second. I think Nash is a great player, but the guy has never hit 80 points in a season. Obviously the players around him have never been great, but still. I think a package of Zibanejad, our 2013 first, our 2014 second, Da Costa, and Greening is a pretty good deal from our point of view. I don’t know how the Jackets would feel about that, but that would be my starting and very close to ending bid.
I'm always confused by people that throw Da Costa into trade proposals
Other than the fact that the fact that he was well above ppg in College (which is usually a good indicator for solid point production in the NHL) and is currently just below ppg in his rookie year as a pro, in the AHL, he was also a sought-after College FA that signed with this team for cultural reasons as much as anything else.
If the org wants to fail in every subsequent attempt at signing College FA’s, they should trade Da Costa.
…
Good points
He was once called the worst participant Cirque du Soleil ever had.
by RogerTheShrubber on Feb 14, 2012 6:48 AM EST up reply actions
Good points
But one of the reasons Butler and Da Costa had signed with us was that we offered a faster route to unrestricted free agency—they could burn years off their eligibility by playing in the NHL right away.
If they’re going to be stuck in the AHL for the foreseeable future and a trade puts them on an NHL team, that might be looked at as doing a favor, like the trade that sent Fisher to Nashville.
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Well, they were already unrestricted free agents
The immediately-into-the-NHL thing was more in order to start getting paid in the hundreds-of-thousands faster, rather than the tens-of-thousands if they were to toil in the AHL.
Plus I’m sure signing bonuses helped along the way.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Feb 14, 2012 12:11 PM EST up reply actions
Right, but once they sign with a team, they become RFAs like anyone else under 27.
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The Butler/Da Costa distinction is an interesting discussion
From my pov, trading Butler could be viewed in the same way as trading Fisher, but it’s still walking a very fine line, one that could be detrimental to subsequent FA acquisition efforts. Trading Da Costa, however, would be foolhardy given the cultural aspect to his signing here. We were an ideal landing spot for the native Parisian (?) given the bilingual nature of our culture. He was given plenty of options for landing spots and he chose us as much for comfort outside of the rink as for success at the rink.
Imo it would be a big mistake to trade him.
by 80 on Feb 14, 2012 8:58 PM EST up reply actions
Did Da Costa say that Ottawa's bilingual culture was part of his reason for signing?
I can’t remember seeing that anywhere.
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So we should refrain from including Da Costa in trade negotiations...
… because we don’t want to risk scaring off future college free agents?
That doesn’t seem like a winning strategy to me. We shouldn’t be afraid to conduct business that way. College free agents need to earn their spot on the team just like any other prospect.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Feb 14, 2012 12:10 PM EST up reply actions
And we should have traded Fisher for the max return, not what his preferred landing spot was willing to offer.
But there’s a human element to contract negotiations and perception is one thing you always want on your side in business dealings.
As far as earning his spot, I’m not advocating catering to his desire to play in the show. I’m not sure what relevance that comment has to the discussion.
by 80 on Feb 14, 2012 9:05 PM EST up reply actions
I had the same reaction when Fisher got traded
I didn’t like it as a hockey move, not one bit, but as a personal favour to Fisher, I thought it was fitting. Now, I don’t have any inside scoop on offerings from other teams, but I would hazard a guess at saying we could have gotten a better deal from another team. However, I think it shows the class of the organization to reward Fisher for all his hard work for the Sens and the entire Ottawa community by trading him to a locale where he can raise a family with his wife.
It is a huge part of the discussion
Prospect isn’t good enough to make the team, so we package him in order to acquire a better prospect. Whether that prospect was signed as a free agent out of college or drafted shouldn’t really matter one bit, in my opinion.
If the Senators trading a college free-agent signee makes another college free agent sour on the Senators as a destination, that’s just stupid on the part of that college free agent.
Also, trading a player isn’t the same as mistreating him fairly. Every player that signs a contract in the NHL realizes that he might be traded; it goes with the territory, even for players with restricted-movement clauses. As long as the franchise conducts themselves professionally, a player who’s traded doesn’t really have anything to complain about.
As for Fisher, I highly doubt we left much of anything on the table to send him to Nashville, as opposed to the mysterious other suitor. We still got a first-round pick and a third for him; that’s a pretty good return, in my opinion. Maybe the other package was a first and a guaranteed second, rather than a conditional one; if so, we left little behind.
There’s a human element to everything in the game, but that doesn’t prevent players from getting traded. And it shouldn’t.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Feb 15, 2012 9:04 AM EST up reply actions
I’m not sure what “mistreating him fairly” means, but I meant to say either “mistreating him” or “treating him unfairly.”
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by Peter Raaymakers on Feb 15, 2012 9:06 AM EST up reply actions
You are exactly correct, Da Costa has performed at every level he’s played at. This makes him an attractive piece for other teams. That in conjunction with the fact that there isn’t much room for a centreman to get consistent minutes in the NHL in the foreseeable future result in the perfect storm to include Da Costa in a trade package. We can’t trade players no one wants for ones that we do, you’ve got to give to get.
Isn't much room for a centerman to get minutes?
Seriously? I didn’t realize we were overflowing with top-6 NHL talent. Seems to me that we need as many potential NHL scorers as we can get.
Also, it’s pretty clear that he will play in the NHL at some point. There’s nothing to say he can’t play wing.
There’s also the small detail that BM the GM said Da Costa reminds him of Adam Oates and believes he can be a legit NHL point producer. That’s a pretty good reason to hang on to him.
by 80 on Feb 14, 2012 9:07 PM EST up reply actions
That was the problem at the start of the year
DaCosta should be playing with top wingers, so they can bury all the chances that he’s able to serve up with his good playmaking skills. When he’s on the 3rd or 4th line, he’s not getting the kind of players that complement him well, so naturally, he won’t succeed as much in those situations.
At this point, with Spezza and Turris ahead of him, and without a strong physical nature to his game, I don’t think there’s top 6 minutes for DaCosta on the big club yet, or for the next few years, unless he shifts to the wing, like you said.
Adam Oates? I like that comparison! We just need a Peter Bondra to compliment him on the wing then… I’m sure one of our plethora of wingers in the pipeline will find some chemistry with him and pan out.
Imo top-9 (3 scoring lines) is a better setup than top-6, bottom-6
only problem is that most teams don’t have the depth to support that. Ottawa is starting to look like they will one day have the depth to run 3 scoring lines and one checking line. If that’s the case, Da Costa is an ideal option for a spot on one of those lines. Whether that’s at centre with Michalek finishing his plays (Imo they looked better together in the preseason than Spez and Michalek have ever looked) or on Turris’s wing is irrelevant. The bottom line is that he has a ton of skill and looked at times like a datsyuk-lite in the early going this season.
The notion that you can have too many offensive prospects (or quality prospects, in general) is crazy talk. That being said, the notion that we can’t use a prime time 1st line winger is even crazier. I would air on the side of caution, though, in dealing potential 60 point forwards with a history of below NHL level success for potential 80 point forwards with a history of moderate NHL level success.
I would do that deal in a heartbeat
Which means any sane GM in Columbus’ shoes wouldn’t.
Yeah, you've got to make that trade, no?
I mean… Rick Nash is Rick Nash. Those other guys are far more easily replaced than a guy like that.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Feb 13, 2012 9:26 PM EST up reply actions
On the other hand...
Nash has a monster of a cap hit, and he’s won roughly nothing. Sure, that’s because his team is garbage, but I wonder if you could talk them down from Zibanejad towards a couple other prospects.
Maybe Regin, Foligno, Noesen, and a first?
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by Peter Raaymakers on Feb 13, 2012 9:29 PM EST up reply actions
I like that trade for us
But Scott Howson would need a beer or three to take that
by tugnutt'n'rhodes on Feb 13, 2012 11:16 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, you have to think some other team is going to be willing to overpay to get Nash
And I would prefer not to overpay.
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I like the upside of Zbad.
This team isn’t ready for a run at lord stanley yet (2-3 or more years away) and Nash is in his prime now, so to me he would be wasted on this team.
I think this team has to many question marks with respects to depth. I know we would like to believe that Neoson and Pumpeol (sp) and Stone are going to be top 6 guys but that will be optimistic and take at least 3-5 years. Foligno is Finally playing the way it was envisioned when we drafted him (grinding winger good for 15-25 goals). We shouldn’t be getting rid of our first round picks unless it is for a 19-24 year old top 3 or six guy in my opinion.
We have to many pieces on D, well every position, even a replacement for Neil who in my opinion is a first rate tough guy that plays the game properly and with respect which most tough guys don’t.
With guys like Gonchar, Kuba, Carkner, Alfie, Phillips all gone in the next few years we will have too many holes to fill with unproven, yet hopeful prospects.
I hope they all turn out and play for the team in a productive manner but it’s still very early in the development process to think we are loaded and able to offload talent for Nash or Anyone of his ilk.
IMHO.
GO SENS GO GO TEXANS GO
The question for me is, "Would Nash speed up the team's rebuild process?"
I have to believe that he does. Assuming we don’t dump all of our prospects to get him, we could be looking at lines next year of:
Nash-Spezza-Silfverberg
Michalek-Turris-Alfredsson
Foligno-Z. Smith-Greening
Rooster-JOB-Condra
Which I think would be a vast improvement over this year’s team. The weak link would still be our defense.
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That really is a well rounded forward lineup
Wouldn’t have a problem with that team one bit!
That, plus one of Ryan Suter, Johnny Boychuk, Brad Stuart or Dennis Wideman (all UFA’s) in the offseason, and we’re set on defense. Then we could sign Josh Harding to shore up our goaltending situation and we’ll be in a good spot for next season, and onwards.
And when Alfie hangs up the skates...
Stone, Puempel or Noeson can take his spot on the second line right wing!
I like you
No Chris Neil!
Probably accidental though, so maybe I don’t like you.
I love soft players (especially Europeans) that play on the perimeter. Enigmas are awesome. Grit and heart-and-soul are red flags.
Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan
Nah, I'd trade him
Foligno and Z. Smith can do what he does if push comes to shove.
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by Mark Parisi on Feb 14, 2012 10:59 AM EST up reply actions
Good call!
We get younger as a result, and faster too
by I Still Miss Hossa!!! on Feb 14, 2012 12:00 PM EST up reply actions
What about Zach Parise
Before we give up the farm and more for Nash, why not take a serious run at Zach Parise in the off-season? It’ll probably cost the same amount (around the $8 million mark) and we won’t give up on our developing prospects.
All Sens, All The Time!
This idea has my full support
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by Mark Parisi on Feb 14, 2012 10:01 AM EST up reply actions
How high are you willing to go?
Unfortunately, we are not the only ones who would want him. Is Parise the kind of player who would go to the highest bidder? If so, how much are willing to offer him? I say 5yrs, 8M per for him
by I Still Miss Hossa!!! on Feb 14, 2012 11:59 AM EST up reply actions
I wouldn't be willing to go above $7M, and no longer than 6 years
Past that point, I think you’re investing too much salary in one player, unless they are a generational talent. When you’re talking about $8M, I think I’d rather have two players like Milan Michalek than one player like Parise.
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by Mark Parisi on Feb 14, 2012 12:10 PM EST up reply actions
Good Point
He’s probably going to get more than that unfortunately.
by I Still Miss Hossa!!! on Feb 14, 2012 12:28 PM EST up reply actions
He probably will
And I’m okay with that. I’m sure that kind of shortsightedness will lead to a major overhaul for whatever team pays him that once he’s no longer a first line guy.
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5 years is fair.
I’m okay with offering him, Weber, Suter etc that kind of term. But he probably wants one of those 7-9 year deals, and I just don’t think that’s reasonable given the prospects we have in the system.
Anything that involves going after a high end FA has my support
I don’t like giving up picks and prospects when someone just as good is about to hit the market.
True.
i don’t think there’s a lot of sense in moving a lot of assets for Nash when there’s possibly comparable talent available in the summer (Parise, even Semin). While i highly doubt Nash would be willing to move from Columbus to another rebuilding franchise, paying the moon for him would still be folly in my opinion.
I’d actually go even further and propose that the Sens shouldn’t sign top names this summer (unless the contract is great), but keep the young core and go after guys who have a good risk/reward-ratio. What do you guys think of signing someone like Patrick O’Sullivan? As a team on build, the Sens can really do no wrong in signing guys with talent and something to prove. They come on the cheap, so if it doesn’t work out there’s not much to lose but if it does, you get a huge bang for the buck. While i’d love to see Parise or Suter don the red, building from within is key at this point.
Why blow up a good thing for top end talent, when the team is hardly a contender this year, the next year or even the year after that?
The Nash pipe dream
For sure it doesn’t hurt to find out what the asking price is. A guy like Nash could really solidify our scoring for years to come.
Spezza’s line even though they produce alot of points are still in the minuses, so as it stands now, it is not a long term solution. And it would be nice to know how much of Michalek’s slump is related to his concussion and how much is just inconsistency?
Z’jad although he’s an exciting prospect, is still just an exciting prospect with no guarantees that he will figure out how to marry his defensive style with the offensive potential he has.
Nash brings a high cap hit and guarantees of alot of offensive production and some physical stuff to go along with his hard to play against style.
As long as we have a plan to go along with this for improving the defence, I’d be in favour of giving up some of our offensive potential including Z’jad to land this pipe dream Nash… and not so much in favour of giving up a bunch of draft picks.
Leadership
I have a question for you guys
There are a couple of guys on our team that get credited for being leaders in the dressing home, guys like Alfie, Neil, Phillips. Type of guys who can turn a game around with a timely goal or a big hit.
My question is, with Alfie soon to go (snif snif) and Neil or Phillips not really in the long term plans, who (besides future captain Spezza) do you see as a leader for the team, on and off the ice?
by I Still Miss Hossa!!! on Feb 14, 2012 2:23 PM EST reply actions
Karlsson for sure
And one would think Foligno, Turris and Carkner may be good leaders. But they’re a ways away. Michalek wears the third A, so you would think him too.
I suppose most players on the team understand MIchalek when he speaks:
but he comes across as a quiet guy, more of a follower than a leader. This is where I like the idea of a young veteran such as Weber or Suter joining the team.
by whatsinaname on Feb 14, 2012 2:52 PM EST up reply actions
You could argue the same about Alfie
He is a very quiet leader. Maybe different in the locker room, but we’ll never know.
You are right: just because the guy's quiet doesn't mean he is not a leader.
Does anyone know anything about Suter or Weber as leaders?
by whatsinaname on Feb 14, 2012 11:08 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, I think Karlsson is a no-brainer
As for the rest, someone will have to emerge.
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You can see the writing on the wall with some players
The most surprising to me is Milan Michalek, who’s filled in as an associate captain in some games. Aside from him, there’s obviously Spezza and Karlsson in the loop.
Plus Foligno seems like a born leader, if only he could develop a bit more consistency in his game.
And you never know, we might bring in a guy like Curtis Leschyshyn or something as we move forward. A supportive captain, if there’s a serious leadership void. But I don’t see it as necessary, really, because I’d disagree with your last sentence and argue that Neil and Phillips are both in the team’s long-term plans.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Feb 14, 2012 3:16 PM EST up reply actions
You think?
By long term I mean 3yrs or more. You think they’ll still have a role on the team?
by I Still Miss Hossa!!! on Feb 14, 2012 3:29 PM EST up reply actions
With Neil, yes, I think so: He’s only 32, after all. I think he’ll be around into his late 30s before he retires.
As for Phillips, it’s tough to say. He’s definitely going to be with the team for a couple seasons more, because he’s got two more years on his contract. He’s only 33 years old, but his play seems to have really fallen off from its peak; unless he can get back to steady, reliable, consistent defence, I don’t think the team will re-sign him after his current contract is up. As it is, he hardly looks like a 5-6 defenceman on most nights.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Feb 14, 2012 4:01 PM EST up reply actions
I forgot he was 32
For some reason, I thought he was older. However with our prospects who will come in the next 2-3 years, don’t you think Neil would be the odd one out? Not to mention the toll his physical style will have on his body at that point
by I Still Miss Hossa!!! on Feb 14, 2012 4:11 PM EST up reply actions
Z'jad or Silfverberg
Which of these guys is more valuable long term? And do we have to count on losing one of them if we want to engage in these trade discussions?
I don’t have specific thoughts about this trade season, but my general thought is that I want Brian to be thinking long term.
Zbad is definitely less valuable. Also the fact that he was a higher pick gives him higher expectations and a bigger ego.
I'm not sure
We’ll have to see, but if we’re talking about long-term value, I’m not sold on Zibanejad outplaying Silfverberg over the course of their respective careers. Silfverberg is an absolute monster in the SEL; he seems like a guy who could easily play top-line minutes as long as his development continues. Zibanejad strikes me as more of a second-line player.
Still, that’s all speculation; we’ll have to see how their development progresses.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Feb 15, 2012 9:08 AM EST up reply actions
Silfverberg is the guy
I agree with Peter. When I saw Silfverberg in TC, he looked to me like the most NHL-ready prospect we had. Big Power Forward who won most of the one on ones, could skate, move the puck, cycle, be physical and score.
Z’jad needs to learn to use his offensive skills. He seemed so intent to prove he was defensively reponsible that he seldom took any chances at all… and so he ended up playing on top lines once we started the season, and he was playing like he was on the 4th line… defensively I mean.
Silfverberg just went straight at whoever had the puck and powered his way into possession. Frankly I was upset when he went overseas, as I was dieing to see him play in the regular season.
I still think that the type of player that Z’jad is, and the learning he has to do, he won’t be any more ready to play in the NHL until he spends a year in the AHL. And he will develop, but it’s going to take alot of patience allowing him to develop.
The Question I have is this
Given the Sens and their (3 year?) development plan, if you would re-wind to September of 2011, would you be asking yourself the question “If Rick Nash is available, what part of our 3 year plan will we give up to get him?”. Will Nash advance the 3 year plan or discombobulate it?
The answer, to me, after taking stock in our prospects is to protect the Stone’s, Zibanejad’s, and Pageau’s and figure to move someone off of the current roster and a FUTURE pick or two.
A guy like Nash (and I realize not many are out their LIKE him) is best added through Free Agency rather than trading pieces of the future. I know Nash is still young enough but it would have to be a trade that would not compromise the original plan. That’s where mistakes get made.
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