Silver Nuggets: Senators facing pressure free summer; Free agents come and go

What happened to Barry Brust??

by The Tif on Jul 8, 2011 1:13 PM EDT reply actions

well...

I’d assume he’ll find another AHL home to play. I think letting him walk makes tonnes of sense, as he was the number 1 last year and they don’t want the controversy. If Lehner had a bad stretch you’d have the fans clamoring for a swap, which wouldn’t be good. Lehner is the teams future in goal, so they don’t need to cloud the issue. He needs games and lots of them, so having a guy behind him that has shown he could carry the weight as a starter doesn’t make sense.

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by modsuperstar on Jul 8, 2011 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions

Good thinking.

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by DarrenM on Jul 8, 2011 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions

Speaking of Lehner

and his friends in the pipeline
http://www.hockeyprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=1012

by DontfeedtheBelak on Jul 8, 2011 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions

That is so awesome. I’m not sure if it was that site or another prospect site that had us at 16 and behind the Leafs in the rankings. The interesting part I find is that that they made no mention of any of our latest draft haul. That’s the first I can recall a prospect wrapup that mentioned Silverberg.

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by modsuperstar on Jul 8, 2011 9:53 PM EDT up reply actions

That was HockeysFuture, they haven't updated since May 31

An Ottawa Senators supporter in Toronto, Ontario. I am cool like that.

by Adnan on Jul 8, 2011 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions

Next year

I am sure we will be better on the HF site,
once this 2011 draft haul (Zibanejad, Peumpel, Neosen, Prince, Pageau) added to the guys who look good and stock rose (Lehner, Silfverberg, Cowen, Rundblad, Boroweicki, Hoffman) continue (hopefully) to look good next year.

I like their site, very informative, good writeups by folks who cover all the teams in some depth. I have followed their stories about the Preds and the Sens, and I think they are fair to both organizsations. I think Nashville is easily top 5, and Ottawa shouldn’t be too far behind, next year.

by DontfeedtheBelak on Jul 9, 2011 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions

Good Q, Tif

Also, was McKenna one of the ’tenders at Development Camp?

by Tom Camps on Jul 8, 2011 1:21 PM EDT via mobile reply actions

Nope, I don't think so

They were three virtual nobodies.

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by Peter Raaymakers on Jul 8, 2011 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions

Sorry to see Wick go

But he never really impressed during his NHL call ups, and I can understand why he’d want to go back home rather than continue in the AHL. He has his Calder Cup, time for him to move on, I suppose.

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by DarrenM on Jul 8, 2011 1:28 PM EDT reply actions

It's hard to impress at the NHL level...

when you’re only given 4th line minutes over 6 or 7 games. Clouston seemed determined to NOT give these kids a chance, even though he was touted as an AHL-friendly coach.

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by BigSlice on Jul 8, 2011 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions

He has had good years

in a lesser league in Europe and a good turn at the Olympics.

I don’t blame him for wanting to go back over for better money and to be closer to home
instead of coming back and riding buses.

I wonder how the ‘one year contracts for everybody’ crowd would feel about handing out a one year one way contract to Wick. He is less NHL proven than the Glorious Unprovens but only barely so, since were are comparing ‘nothing’ to ‘next to nothing’. Of course, he did look good at the Olympics in a small sample set against all world comp.

And it could have let us keep an asset in the organization.

by DontfeedtheBelak on Jul 8, 2011 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions

I don’t think the ‘one year contracts for everybody’ crowd would have wanted Wick to get a one-way. Wick posted lesser numbers in both the AHL and the NHL than Butler, Greening, or Condra, and I don’t see how he fits into the line-up the way those three do.

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by DarrenM on Jul 8, 2011 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions

one year, no commitment, no risk

and keeps the guys on these shores.

If he doesn’t pan out, bury him in the AHL.

I don’t really know you can go by the NHL numbers. One, small sample size, and Two, Wick played with Lessard and played 7 minutes a game in the NHL. Plus, based on his Olympics, you could say he could be a decent two way forward. Small sample size, but isn’t Greening and Condra’s NHL games that you are counting, small as well?

If the ‘no risk, short commitment, little money, here’s your opportunity now prove it’ arguments work for giving one ways to Condra, Greening and Smith, those arguments should work for Wick.

He could have been elder statesmen of the Glorious Unprovens. And kept an asset in the system.

by DontfeedtheBelak on Jul 8, 2011 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions

I think Wick’s lack of size and distaste for the physical nature of North American hockey works against him in comparison to the “Glorious Unprovens”.

by DW19 on Jul 8, 2011 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions

Ah

Well, Smith and Greening were dfn physical, and Condra less so, but he went into the corners and blocked shots. I was impressed with Wick during the Olympics, fast, talented with the puck, and he did drive the net, though clearly he wasn’t a physical force.

I think Wick has more offensive ability (again, just going by what I saw in the Olympics, though he did have 20 goals this last year, his first in the A), and could be a top six guy, or at least fit that mold better than the Glorious Unprovens. I don’t think he deserved a one way, in the same vein that Condra and Greening didn’t deserve one-way in my eyes. But, if its ‘little financial risk, possible opportunity to prove yourself’ type of mentality that some have with regards to Condra and Greening, than why not Wick?

Especially since he is done, likely, as a Sen. Maybe a one way would have kept him here, and we would have an asset, that could have developed in the NHL.

by DontfeedtheBelak on Jul 8, 2011 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions

I think the part you’re missing about these 1 way deals is that many of these are all guys who were drafted pre-2006. So many of them are almost out of the prospect classification. Because Condra and Greening finished college they are older. So if they didn’t offer them 1 way deals they were probably going to let them walk. Given both showed a glimmer of the fact they could play in the NHL last year it really didn’t make sense to let both of them go. And given the current CBA a player can be a free agent as young as 25, the Sens want to show a commitment to these players before they flee for nothing.

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by modsuperstar on Jul 8, 2011 10:00 PM EDT up reply actions

I would think

that you shouldn’t let any asset walk for nothing. If it is considered low risk to have a low money, short term one way for Condra and Greening,
it should also have been true of Wick (who is of similar age bracket).

I feel more strongly about Daugavins, since they spent a good deal of time developing and playing him in Bingo. We shalll see what they do with Kaspars.

by DontfeedtheBelak on Jul 9, 2011 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions

I think you have to also give some credit to the Senators’ scouting staff who are able to look at these players and determine who is NHL-ready or not. They determined their priorities and signed players accordingly. I don’t really have a problem with it.

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by DarrenM on Jul 8, 2011 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions

They obviously

qualified Wick, when they could have let him go (potulny, bass) to UFA status.

I think they wanted to keep him in the system. If it would have taken a low risk, at worst middling to at best decent reward one way contract, which some feel and justify with regards to Condra and Greening, then they should have done the same with Wick. A round of one ways for everbody!!!

by DontfeedtheBelak on Jul 8, 2011 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions

That's a little optimistic

Wick has missed his window. Check out this article describing him as a sens prospect… from 6 years ago! He just never stepped up, so I don’t see a reason to be concerned about him leaving north america.

by Joebo on Jul 8, 2011 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions

Did you see the Olympics last year?

I wasn’t the only sens fan impressed.

by DontfeedtheBelak on Jul 8, 2011 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions

not much

I watched very little of it. I have young kids, so watching the swiss team wasn’t high on my priority list.

by Joebo on Jul 8, 2011 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions

Wick

was the best non-Hiller player on the ice. Sometimes on BOTH teams.

Very impressive. I had no idea he was a Sens prospect, until he came up on The Hockey News, hfboards, and on this site in the weeks after as a guy worth watching/a guy who stock rose during the Olympics.

by DontfeedtheBelak on Jul 8, 2011 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions

Glad you liked him

If you read the article I linked you’ll see this was his second go-around as a prospect with the sens. I guess despite his great performance at the Olympics he must not have performed consistently enough to earn more time in the NHL, not to mention his lack of production when he was called up (yes I read the Lessard comment).

While I admire your enthusiasm for your favorite players, I think there are a lot of other (& younger) prospects that are equally good that BM et. al. will probably favor when stocking the minor league team.

by Joebo on Jul 8, 2011 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions

Wick was very, very impressive at the Olympics

He was much less impressive in the AHL.

I have no explanation for this, except the difference in surface size and physicality, but that’s just speculation on my part.

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by Mark Parisi on Jul 8, 2011 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions

did you watch alot of AHL hockey?

I didn’t but I am under the impression that Wick was unimpressive in the first part of the year, but got in a groove in the second half, just by going by the terrific pressconnects site.

He seemed to show enough in the second half that he could be a productive prospect in North America. He clearly had the skill and speed. I can’t say he is physical, but he didn’t shy away from the front of the net in the Olympics, so at least he has it in him.

by DontfeedtheBelak on Jul 8, 2011 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions

I watched enough to form an impression of Wick

Especially in the playoffs. The Wick I saw there is different from the Wick I saw in the Olympics. I believe he has an NHL-caliber shot, so I’m at a loss to explain the difference.

I’m obviously not a scout, and I definitely didn’t scrutinize Wick or watch all of his games, so I’m by no means offering an authoritative opinion, just my impression.

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by Mark Parisi on Jul 8, 2011 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions

Fair and reasonable

I readily admit I didn’t see him in the AHL, but the game reports indicated that he stepped it up in the second half of the year.

The only viewing I have had was the Olympics. That guy was worth qualifying, and worth a one way contract, if it meant keeping That Wick in the system, and if guys like Condra and Greening are getting one ways.

There was a lot of excitement in the weeks following on this site not so sure
but on other sites, about this guy being a forgotten Sen.

I viewed him like Butler, Cannone, Da Costa, Hamilton: a freebie asset. Its too bad that now the Sens have nothing to show for him.

by DontfeedtheBelak on Jul 8, 2011 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions

I was annoyed that his NHL minutes were on the fourth line

I wish we knew more about the contract situation. My read on it is that he was intent on returning to Switzerland. I’ve read unsubstantiated rumors that the team did make an offer to him, but he turned them down. That would seem to jibe with the situation as it appears, but again, totally unsubstantiated.

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by Mark Parisi on Jul 8, 2011 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions

Any link

to rumor? Was it one way or two way?

by DontfeedtheBelak on Jul 8, 2011 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions

I guess no other NHL team offered him a contract that he was interested in either. That is not necessarily a comment on his ability or potential, it might be more a comment on his desire to play in Switzerland.

by DW19 on Jul 8, 2011 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions

It's just from someone who claims to have "sources" but who I don't believe does

I won’t dignify it with a link.

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by Mark Parisi on Jul 8, 2011 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions

What, you don't like when I talk about rumours

And my source turns out to be my Dad? Is that not authoritative enough for you?

Oh Captain, my Captain!

by AlfieGirl on Jul 11, 2011 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions

Honestly, your Dad at least counts as source beacuse he's not made up

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by Mark Parisi on Jul 11, 2011 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions

There's always a lot of excitement about prospects

People were excited when Jesse Winchester started, thinking he might be a top-six player. He most definitely wasn’t.

Prospects like Wick (that is, late bloomers) come along once in a while, and generate a fair bit of excitement. But more often than not, it doesn’t work out.

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by Peter Raaymakers on Jul 8, 2011 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions

I think it was starting to work out

Wick had 4 goals in his first 39 games (according to an AHL.com article called Wick-ed good), and several reports stated that he struggled with the north american game/pace.

He also had 16 goals in his last 31 games, and adapted well. I didn’t watch the games, only followed the recaps, and he was mentioned alot in the end of the year. Goal scoring and offense are a premium across the league, and at age 26 (a little older than Condra, Greening and Butler),
he looked to be more productive. Only Butler had a stretch that was comparable in putting the puck in the net.

What I do know, from his Olympics, is that he has hands, speed, and a nose for the net, and a good shot. I guess we were lucky to lure him back last year, on a two way deal. The way he impressed, he could have held out for a low pay/short term one way contract. Of course, we were supposedly contenders in the Fall of 2010, and sold on Regin and Foligno as topsix guys, so he was ticketed to Bingo regardless.

by DontfeedtheBelak on Jul 9, 2011 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions

Would you have

qualified him? based on his AHL playoffs (9 pts in 21 games, which actualy compares favorably to Greening).

Who did he skate with? Certainly wasn’t Locke, Potulny, Keller, Smith. Duagavins?

What would you do with Kaspars?

I am worried that we will have lost two assets with attractive qualities and potential, to Europe. I am not in favor of handing them one ways, but if it means them staying vs losijng them for good, and if one ways are going to Condra and Greening, then 600,000K for asset protection is okay by me, based on reading about Daugavins and Wick this year.

by DontfeedtheBelak on Jul 8, 2011 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions

I'd love to keep Daugavins in the fold

If his skills can translate to the NHL level, awesome; he’s definitely got the personality to be an entertaining personality in the league. But Daugavins has an opportunity to trade his chance in North America in for a sure thing in his native country, and to likely make more money in the process. I wouldn’t begrudge him at all for heading back to Latvia if he isn’t guaranteed anything in North America.

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by Peter Raaymakers on Jul 8, 2011 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions

Then

you would guarantee him? A short term, low risk contract like Condra or Greening?

I would. If that is the going rate, which for whatever reason, it is.

by DontfeedtheBelak on Jul 8, 2011 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions

Why not give more money to play in the AHL on a 2-way? If that’s what it takes to get our prospects to stay then we should do it. Keller left and is making a fair chunk more to play in the A then he got from the Sens. With the Sens not spending to the cap why not spend a few more bucks to to keep other players in our system?

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by modsuperstar on Jul 8, 2011 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions

That is something

I hope management considered, especially with Keller and Potulny gone. Wick had a great second half.

Thing is, there is no guarantee he would have stayed, given that he could be a well paid pro in Europe. Still, I would give him a one way, if guys like Condra and Greening and Smith are getting one ways. What’s one more contract?

by DontfeedtheBelak on Jul 9, 2011 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions

I absolutely would have qualified him

And I’d have been willing to risk 600K to see if he could beat out the other kids in camp—even though my impression is that he wouldn’t.

I’d qualify Rooster as well, but I don’t think I’d be willing to give him more than a two-way. i just don’t think he’s an NHL player.

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by Mark Parisi on Jul 8, 2011 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions

Just to clarify

The olympics were on NHL sized rinks, and the AHL, same.

Also, while its only speculation, I don’t think the Olympics were any more or less physical. They were more intense, past the round robin, and I can easily imagine that lending itself to higher physicality. Why would you think it was less physical?

by DontfeedtheBelak on Jul 8, 2011 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions

Ha, of course they were. I don't know what I was thinking

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by Mark Parisi on Jul 8, 2011 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions

Not quite

AHL arenas vary in size. The Binghamton rink, for instance, is quite a bit smaller than standard NHL dimensions.

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by Peter Raaymakers on Jul 8, 2011 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions

how smaller

is quite a bit smaller?

Looked like it was NHLesque, ice surface size wise. I do know that Wick looked just fine at the Olympics, so I wouldn’t think he would have a problem with NHL sized space to work in.

by DontfeedtheBelak on Jul 8, 2011 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions

Q: Why would you think it was less physical?

A: More skill players and fewer grinders.

by DW19 on Jul 8, 2011 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions

Which team had more skill

and less grinder?

Russia, I can assume. The two games I watched (versus Canada, and Ovie smoking Jagr) fit in with NHL playoff style physicality and intensity.

The Swiss games (versus the US and CANADA), same, just with unreal goaltending to boot from Hiller.

by DontfeedtheBelak on Jul 8, 2011 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions

I didn’t see the Boston Bruins or Philadelphia Flyers out there in the Olympics, but maybe that’s just my impression. To me the various Olympic teams played a more Vancouver/Detroit style game that emphasized moving the puck and defensive positioning moreso than grinding in the corners like a typical Eastern Conference NHL match-up.

by DW19 on Jul 8, 2011 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions

Agreed

while i thought the olympics were physical and intense, there wasn’t the facewashing, the post-whistle stuff, the intimidation stuff.

Not saying Wick couldn’t handle it, but it was very much toned down compared to the NHL.

by DontfeedtheBelak on Jul 8, 2011 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions

Also the players who are on loan from other teams try not to get hurt

Except for Dominic Hasek in 2006, of course.

Oh Captain, my Captain!

by AlfieGirl on Jul 11, 2011 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions

I doubt that is true

Was their one guy on Team Canada that looked like he was half-assing it out there?

Its not the Stanley Cup, but Olympic medals are certainly worth competing for.

by DontfeedtheBelak on Jul 11, 2011 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions

I didn't say half-assing anywhere, did I?

But I’m pretty sure the NHLers are concerned about making sure they’re still in shape to play for the Cup. No NHLer wants their season to end in February, even if it gets them an Olympic medal.

Oh Captain, my Captain!

by AlfieGirl on Jul 11, 2011 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions

playing not to get hurt

is half-assing it.

Where has any player ever said that they were playing not to get hurt in the Olympics? In fact, the NHL has always been cautious about their players in the the tournament, because of the injury risk. They are playing to win, like in the NHL. For 2014, Ovechkin has even said he’s going without the NHL’s blessing.

Any player doesn’t want to get hurt in any game in February, even in a non-olympic year, but that doesn’t mean they are skating around cautious about injuries.

by DontfeedtheBelak on Jul 11, 2011 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions

I admit he is older

but so are Greening in Condra, than most prospects. Seeing Joel Ward in Nashville, the age thing doesn’t really concern me. If you have an asset that looks to be worth keeping (and qualifying), and you are giving out one way contracts to others, you may as well give a one way to a guy that you may risk losing back to Europe.

I wonder what they will do with Daugavins. He has some skill and speed, lots of energy and enthusiasm. There may be younger guys, but we aren’t rich in top six fwds, so I hope they do what they have to do to keep him in the system.

by DontfeedtheBelak on Jul 8, 2011 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions

Yeah, I was going to point this out. It’s not like Wick is much older than Greening, Butler, or Condra — all three have taken their time in making it to the Pros.

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by DarrenM on Jul 8, 2011 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions

The four year college career

would make any one of these prospects older. They are bright for sure, but not Doogie Howser bright

by DontfeedtheBelak on Jul 8, 2011 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions

continuing the conversation

As great as he might of looked, I think he’s hit his peak and won’t find a spot in the NHL. He’s a top-6 type, not a bottom-6, so he’d have to beat out guys like Filatov, Butler, etc. and I think at his age he’s past the point where that might happen.

by Joebo on Jul 8, 2011 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions

I would agree

that he missed the boat as a prospect if it weren’t for his Olympics.

http://blogcritics.org/sports/article/3-olympic-hockey-players-that-could/

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=327410

http://hfboards.com/archive/index.php/t-769356.html

http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2010/07/13/swiss-olympic-hero-roman-wick-signs-on-with-senators/

They just qualified him, so they think enough of him to want to retain his rights. If they let \potulny and bass go to pursue one way opportunities elsewhere,
and if Murray is all about no risk opportunities (low cost, short term, one ways), why not Wick?

If you get a chance to watch clips of Wick online, you should.

by DontfeedtheBelak on Jul 8, 2011 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions

Where did you read that the Senators recently qualified Wick?

All I can find says he’s left the ottawa senators and signed a 3-year deal in switzerland. just google wick and refine to last week, e.g. here

by Joebo on Jul 8, 2011 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions

It was published all over

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/sports/hockey/ottawa-senators/offers+coming+Bass+Bailey+Potulny/5014057/story.html

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/hockey/nhl/2011-07-01-4069769534_x.htm

Basically, the only ones they didn’t qualify were Bass and Potulny (as a favour, to let them go out and find one way deals if possible) and Bailey (who isn’t much of a prospect)

by DontfeedtheBelak on Jul 8, 2011 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions

Do the Senators retain his NHL rights?

If the Sens retain his NHL rights due to the qualifying offer that they extended to him then they could always give him another chance next season or some time in the future if he really lights things up in the Swiss League.

by DW19 on Jul 8, 2011 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions

I don't know if we do

On one hand, I would think so, since he still has RFA-eligibility left.

On the other, anyone 27 years old—which he’d be after next season—is considered a UFA under the current CBA.

I’m guessing his age trumps everything else.

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by Mark Parisi on Jul 8, 2011 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions

That makes sense.

by DW19 on Jul 8, 2011 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions

I don't think there is a "one year contracts for everybody" crowd

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by Mark Parisi on Jul 8, 2011 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions

Seriously

These straw-man arguments are getting old fast.

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by Peter Raaymakers on Jul 8, 2011 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions

But dont

the arguments for Condra and Greening and Smith (low financial risk, short term, its an opportunity that they either use to prove they are or aren’t and the Sens can go forward knowing, with or without them)

apply to Wick? They qualified him so they think something of im.

by DontfeedtheBelak on Jul 8, 2011 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions

Sure they do

But they don’t have anything to do with a claim that there’s a “one year contracts for everybody” crowd. Statements like that are needlessly antagonistic.

Personally, I would have liked to see Wick get the same opportunity as Condra and Greening. I agree that the Sens obviously think something of Wick—if they qualified him, they’re hoping that he stays in the organization. He’s the one choosing to walk away.

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by Mark Parisi on Jul 8, 2011 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions

I'd argue they don't

In the event Smith, Greening, or Condra don’t work out as top-six players (which seems likely), they will be able to play well as bottom-six players.

Wick, on the other hand, is an offensive player. If he’s not capable of playing in an NHL’s top six, he won’t work in the NHL because he doesn’t have the approach or the skill set to fill in on the third or fourth line. The same can be said of Daugavins.

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by Peter Raaymakers on Jul 8, 2011 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions

No guarantee

that they are NHL level 3rd liners or 4th liners.

We were hyped at one point (Dec. 2007 and playoffs 2008) about one Cody Bass.

And since quality bottom six guys are all over the league, and more affordable, the premium on one-ways should go to those with premium potential (top six, where there is a deficit on most teams in the League)

by DontfeedtheBelak on Jul 8, 2011 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions

This 'no guarantee' thing is silly

We’ve already said that there are no guarantees of anything in the league.

We have seen evidence, though, that they can be capable bottom-six players. Last year, as well as the season before, as well as when observing past players who’ve had the size, speed, and tenacity to compensate for other shortcomings in their game.

As for more affordable bottom-six players, they don’t get much cheaper than Condra or Greening.

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by Peter Raaymakers on Jul 8, 2011 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions

you stated

above that The Glorious Unprovens will be able to play well in bottom six roles.

Patentedly untrue. They may be Cody Bass. Roman Wick may be Magnus Arvedson, he may be tyler arnason.

Yet you justify one way for one set, and not the other, based on ‘being able to play well as bottom six’ players.
I fail to see why the low risk, potential reward, short term one way is good in one case and silly in the other.
To your other point (the affordability of Greening, Condra)
If you want an affordable potential topsix guy, how could they get cheaper than Wick?

by DontfeedtheBelak on Jul 8, 2011 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions

Why do you keep calling them that?

An Ottawa Senators supporter in Toronto, Ontario. I am cool like that.

by Adnan on Jul 8, 2011 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions

I class them together

like most fans since they were developed in the AHL together, and came up in the NHL together this year and got playing time post firesale. Plus, they all were tied to the Calder Cup run, and got re upped in a similar time frame.

Note enough of them to go by Magnificent Seven. Johnny Damon already took Band of Misfits. Glorious Unprovens, a nice go between.

by DontfeedtheBelak on Jul 8, 2011 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions

I treat them differently because they emply different styles. If you think Greening, Condra, and Smith are in the same category as Daugavins and Wick, you are just being argumentative for the sake of it. It’s quite obvious that they are in different categories.

This debate is ridiculous. If you are unable to accept that there are people with different but still valid opinions than yours, then get real.

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by Peter Raaymakers on Jul 8, 2011 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions

They are the same

in that they may be decent NHL players (in their respective roles) or they may not be. They could be Chris Kelly, they could be Cody Bass. Topsix guys (skill

You clearly didn’t follow up above. Re-read. There is no reason why one class (bottom six) is more worth the one way short term low risk than the other class (Wick)

by DontfeedtheBelak on Jul 8, 2011 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions

Agree to disagree, I guess

It seems obvious to me that there is less risk signing an unproven bottom-six player than there is in signing an unproven top-six player.

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by Peter Raaymakers on Jul 8, 2011 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions

That would be true

if Wick demanded topsix money.

I can only speculate, but if there was going to be one way on the table, it probably would be the ballpark NHL salary his two way was for, so likely equal risk in $$$ and in term to Condra et al.

by DontfeedtheBelak on Jul 8, 2011 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions

So

by your logic, Bobby Butler isn’t worth a one way, because if he flames out as a point producer, his style doesn’t mesh in the bottom six and therefore won’t have the value.

Following the thread, its clear that the thinking (one way, short term, low risk) behind the one way contracts, based on yesterday’s discussions, look to only apply to one set (The Glorious Unprovens), and not the other (Wick, also a glorious unproven, but just a topsix guy.

If they thought enough of him to qualify him, I wonder if they thought enough to give him a one way like the rest of the Unprovens.

by DontfeedtheBelak on Jul 8, 2011 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions

If Butler ends up not being able to carry over his scoring from last season, he could still be an effective third liner. He has pretty good hockey sense and doesn’t mind digging out the puck or throwing a check.

by DW19 on Jul 8, 2011 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions

I guess

I thought Butler didnt really have defensive prowess or awareness.. Dont really seem as being overly physical. My favorite thing about him was his willingness to shoot, his shot, and his ability to skate into heavy traffic areas and find the puck, with some speed.

Did he kill penalties in the AHL?

by DontfeedtheBelak on Jul 8, 2011 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions

I don’t think so, but Ottawa is not really short on penalty killing forwards.

by DW19 on Jul 8, 2011 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions

You seem to be intentionally obscuring my arguments

And I don’t understand what possible purpose there is to this debate. You’re obviously just going to mis-state what I’ve said, project it onto some ridiculous comparison, and then formulate an argument all on your own. Honestly, I wonder how long you could continue going it I stopped responding… I think you could probably go on for a while.

The flaw I see with your argument, aside from its incoherency, is that you’re generalizing not only between the roles our prospects will be asked to play, but also between the levels of ‘unprovenness’ between them.

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by Peter Raaymakers on Jul 8, 2011 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions

Its not incoherent

I believe that the risk in an unproven topsix potential guy like Wick is no worse than that of an unproven bottom six guy. Thus the ‘low risk/short term/low $’ contracts of Condra et al could have applied to Wick, if it would have kept him in the system.

you think the risk is less with bottom six guys than topsix guys on the cusp. I fail to see why. Did you see that Wick demanded more money or term? His last contract was similar in structure to the two ways that Condra et al had.

The risk is negligible at this dollar and term, anyway, right?

And the reward, greater, in a potential topsix guy like wick, than for a greening or smith or condra (though smith and condra have some puck sense to maybe score 15-20 goals someday, and maybe Greening too, in a crash bang role)

by DontfeedtheBelak on Jul 8, 2011 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions

Too many unresolved issues

I think Peter’s (and maybe others too) frustration is in that he didn’t buy the starting point of your argument, questioned it, but you just moved on in another direction.

I think you made the point yesterday and had some level of agreement that ideally Condra, Greening and Smith should be on 2-way rather than 1-way deals.

Based on that, probably the top-6 prospects should get 2-way deals as well.

We don’t know why BM gave these guys one-ways, but my guess is he has them penciled into the bottom 6 for the whole season based on their performance at the end of the last.

by Joebo on Jul 8, 2011 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions

I think that

they are all assets that are question marks at the NHL level, but have potential value.

I would rather them keep Daugavins and Wick in North America. We are rebuilding next year, and if you believe that there is no harm and no risk in short term, low salary one way contracts for Condra and Greening (worst case: they suck and go to the minors with NHL money, or play poorly for a noncentending team),

it seems inconsistent to not believe the same for Wick and Daugavins. Especially when Condra and Greening aren’t going anywhere, and Daugavins and Wick both have reason to head to Europe.

They are all assets. In fact, at their topend I would say Wick’s stretch of hockey in the Olympics was above any stretch of hockey we have seen from the others last year.

I am very curious to see what happens with Kaspars. And if it ever comes out, that GMBM did or did not offer Wick a one way, at a time when one ways were there to be had for relatively unproven prospects.

by DontfeedtheBelak on Jul 8, 2011 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions

Your blatant bias against Murray makes your argument unreasonable

You’ve already assumed that Wick somehow went to go to Switzerland because he didn’t receive an offer. It could very well be that he didn’t receive an offer because the Senators didn’t want to impede his career, as they did with Potulny and Bass.

As fans, we simply don’t have enough information to reasonably draw the conclusions that you are making.

The organization clearly feels that players like Z. Smith, Colin Greening, and Erik Condra are their best chances to develop NHL talent. Why you’re so adamant on disagreeing with a professional staff with a pretty strong record of evaluating young talent when you don’t have the same experience or information is beyond me, and frankly, tiresome at this point.

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by Mark Parisi on Jul 8, 2011 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions

we are fans

we don’t have to agree with everything management does.

They have a bunch of possible hits coming up, with Lehner, the D, and this year’s draft haul. They also have their share of managerial flops in evaluating talent and decision making (Leclaire, Meszaros for Kuba/Picard, Lee, Winchester, Heatley for Michalek, Kovalev, Gonchar).

Murray specifically mentioned not tendering Potulny and Bass as favours. He actually tendered an offer to Wick. Are you assuming they didn’t make an offer (except for the RFA tender w mandatory raise) as a favour to Wick? What is that assumption based on?
Link?

I don’t know that Kaspars or Wick have received offers, other than their tenders. I would like to think that management would consider offering them one way contracts, if they threatened to leave. I have said several places above, that it would be interesting to find out if GMBM considered it.

If the rationale/defence some fans have for the one ways for Condra/Greening/Smith is that they are ‘short term/low dollar’ low risk opportunities to prove themselves as a NHL commodity during rebuilding years,

I would think the same ‘no harm/no foul’ principle should extend to assets that may leave. If the rationale for Condra and Greening include their age and experience and that they could leave, one would think the same would apply to Kaspars and Wick (older, plus with ties to pro leagues in Europe).

by DontfeedtheBelak on Jul 9, 2011 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions

I'm not advocating blind faith in the Senators' management

They have made many mistakes, and those mistakes are well-documented, and cannot be ignored when looking at future moves.

That said, at some point, we have to accept that the staff makes decisions based on information that we as fans simply do not have access to. You point to Murray’s mistakes as a reason not to trust his decisions; I ask you to find a GM who has never made a mistake. Again, your clear bias against Murray makes your questioning of him unreasonable, because it isn’t coming from a place of objective evaluation.

Are you assuming they didn’t make an offer (except for the RFA tender w mandatory raise) as a favour to Wick?

This is a misunderstanding or misrepresentation of what was said; I’m not sure which. Once again, it seems from your argument you are assuming that Wick left because he didn’t receive an offer.

My point is that since we don’t have the same information as the organization, it’s impossible to reach this conclusion. I’m not making any assumptions, but merely pointing out the possibility of other scenarios. We will probably never know the exact circumstances behind Wick’s departure, so if he did not receive an offer (which seems likely) we don’t—and won’t, even if it comes to light that was the case—know if it was done because he wasn’t in the team’s long-term plans or as a favor to a player desiring to play in his home country, or one of any other many possibilities.

I would think the same ‘no harm/no foul’ principle should extend to assets that may leave.

This is only reasonable if you believe players are “assets” with equal and interchangeable skill sets, work ethics, and potential.

Reality is that players are all unique and value judgments are made on them every year. That’s why prospects are ranked every year and the draft has rounds instead of a free-for-all signing period. It’s an inexact science, and many of those value judgments turn out to be incorrect, but it’s the nature of the beast.

You may not agree with those value judgments (which again seems unreasonable considering you don’t have access to the same information used to make those judgments), but choosing to denigrate them with sarcastic nicknames saps an already tenuous argument of any remaining credibility.

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by Mark Parisi on Jul 9, 2011 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions

If

Condra et al. got one way contracts because they were short-term, low risk, low money, and doesn’t hurt a team in its rebulidng year, why not a guy who got 16 goals in his last 31 games, and looked good against Olympic competition?

Not all assets are created equal. Did I say that somewhere? I am pretty sure I didn’t. Nonetheless, Wick was an asset deemed worth qualifying, like Condra and Co. An asset that had some value (I never said equal to Silfverberg, but certainly, value that was worth qualifying), now has none.

if a cheap contract (no risk, short term) would have kept him here, and Daugavins too, why not offer these no harm, no foul contracts to assets, like they were offered to 1st and 2nd year pros who themselves were late draft picks and older than most prospects?

It would be interesting if we find out if BM even made an offer. It seems wasteful to reduce the value of any asset to zero.

Did I ever say any GM was perfect?
The GM here in Nashville recently had a RFA misstep, but resigned every one except Thuresson, who was traded for a low grade prospect. Got something of value for every one, and every one was resigned to reasonable contracts.

I guess that is why he was a finalist for GM of the year, and GMBM wasn’t. Maybe next year, eh?

by DontfeedtheBelak on Jul 9, 2011 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions

why not a guy who got 16 goals in his last 31 games, and looked good against Olympic competition?

Because not all players are equally valued by their organizations.

if a cheap contract (no risk, short term) would have kept him here

We don’t know that it would have. We don’t know any of the circumstances besides that a qualifying offer was made. The rest of the speculation is pointless because it’s based on assumptions supported by no facts. I’ve run out of different ways to repeat this.

I guess that is why he was a finalist for GM of the year, and GMBM wasn’t. Maybe next year, eh?

You’re clearly not interested in being taken seriously. There’s no point in continuing this discussion.

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by Mark Parisi on Jul 9, 2011 10:16 PM EDT up reply actions

Credibility issues

Stating Wick looked better at the Olympics due to the larger ice surfaces (in VANCOUVER) and saying he wasn’t impressive in the AHL while you didn’t really watch the games (and was the leading goal scorer in the second half, playing on arguably the third line), I don’t think you want to be taking seriously. The discussion stemmed from yesterday: if Condra et al. got one ways because of the no cost/term/risk of the contract, than Wick and perhaps Daugavins should have got the same consid. If they didn’t, it would be interesting to find out why they would let an asset walk for nothing.

If you didn’t realize what Wick did in the second half, with borderline second-third line time, are you in a position to say he was not impressive in the AHL, with any degree of authority?

by DontfeedtheBelak on Jul 10, 2011 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions

The rest of the speculation is pointless

Umm, wasn’t your reasoning for the one ways for Condra and Co. (low risk, low term, low dollar one ways, an opportunity that if it doesn’t pan out will run its course when the team contends) all speculation too?

So you can speculate towards your points, but the counterpoint can not?
Seriously: its a blog for fans. Its about speculation. You included. Give the holier than thou stuff a rest.
And watch some Olympic footage. You will see a stark resemblance of the ice surface size as you did in the Stanley Cup Finals.

by DontfeedtheBelak on Jul 10, 2011 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions

The problem for Wick is that he has a higher bar to jump over than Condra and Greening. The be a top 6 player you need to show a lot more than you do to be a bottom 6 player. For Condra and Greening to benefit the Senators they need to be defensively responsible, handle the physical play at the NHL level and score a bit. In Wick’s case, he needs to not be a defensive liability (I can’t comment one way or the other, but his size doesn’t help in this regard) AND he needs to show signs of scoring a lot (especially at the AHL level).

This is leaving aside the fact that Wick may have played out his contract and decided that he didn’t care for the the North American style of hockey given his year’s experience in it. He may have come to the conclusion that unless the Senators offered a lot more money than he would get in Switzerland that he was happier going back home. It might be that failing a multi-year deal at a fairly high dollar amount that he had no intention of staying. That is total speculation, of course, but maybe that is what happened. Who knows…

by DW19 on Jul 11, 2011 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions

I agree that

top six guys have to show the knack for offense that bottom six don’t, but for their given skill sets, I think we have abundand bottom six guys, and few topsix guys. Topsix is a commodity around the League.

He did have that Olympic run, that 16 goal in 31 game run in the AHL, and he did it largely with lower tier linemates. he also doesn’t really shy away from contact, nor is he small (6’2, 208, and looks a lot more sturdy than Condra and Butler).

He ended up being a forgotten asset that temporarily had some value, and now its back to zero. Its his decision, but one can speculate whether what the Sens did (if anything) to consider to stay. Some points brought up by others: give him a one way like the rest, give him a two way with a higher AHL salary. I would rather have him than Parrish taking up a roster spot; both are experienced vets, but one has possibility for value in the future, one does not.

by DontfeedtheBelak on Jul 11, 2011 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions

Hmm, I am surprised by his measurements. I hate to say he “played small” when I saw him in a Sens uniform, so I will just say that I never imagined he was as big as he apparently is.

Overall, I don’t think that Wick moves the needle much one way or the other. If Wick didn’t beat out guys like Filatov, Regin and Foligno for top six minutes then I think he would have been sent back to the AHL rather than being used in the bottom six. I am not convinced that he would have beaten those guys out in training camp, so in the end the Senators let a guy who was most likely going to spend the year in the AHL go. I think the Senators lost a more valuable asset in Shannon than they did in Wick. I guess that is just my own semi-informed opinion.

by DW19 on Jul 11, 2011 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions

Wick has been treatd well by the Senators.

He was given the opportunities he deserved and the minutes he earned. While he has shown promise he fell short of winning a top six position outright. Given that there are only two positions at wing available and Bobby Butler is a virtual lock to take one of them that leaves Wick competing with Filatov, Regin, Foligno. and Silfverberg for the remaining spot.

Wick likely didn’t like the possibility of riding buses in the A again next year and decided to grab a lucrative European contract. After all, coming off the Calder Cup victory his value is as high as its ever been.

Adios Roman and best of luck.

P.S. I bet Shanon had more hits than Wick last year.

by anothersensfan on Jul 11, 2011 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions

I agree

Shannon, a guy with NHL speed and toprate PK ability, and proven to be able to play in the NHL, is a loss.

Not sure why folks didn’t think has physical. His invisibility was more due to the 7 or so minutes a game with Lessard.
If you think Wick played small, wait till you get a load of Filatov. Also, Condra had 4 hits in his tryout, but I didn’t think he shied away from contact. Not sure if you can go by just hits.

by DontfeedtheBelak on Jul 11, 2011 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions

By this point Clouston was playing whomever he thought would help save his job

Wick didn’t show that he had the potential right away, so he got fourth line minutes.

Space for rent.

by awr.campbell on Jul 8, 2011 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions

Good depth moves for Bingo

Both Parrish and McKenna have had some decent AHL numbers over the past few years. And perhaps Parrish can replace the goals lost with Ryan Keller’s depature. Surely it can’t be any more complex than that?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHbj53fZx2Y

by bacraswell on Jul 8, 2011 1:45 PM EDT reply actions

I have a question

Does anyone think tahat the team Toronto has now is better than Ottawa’s?

by Senator26 on Jul 8, 2011 3:54 PM EDT reply actions

I don't have any interest in comparing ourselves with Toronto

I’m not sure what the point of that would be.

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by Mark Parisi on Jul 8, 2011 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions

yes

ottawa is a non playoff team, where Toronto should fight for a lower tier playoff spot. However, with Rundblad, Cowen, Gryba, Weircioch, Zibs, Puempel, Noesen, Butler Silfverberg and Lehner developing, we should not be too far off from surpassing them.

by DontfeedtheBelak on Jul 8, 2011 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions

Neither team is strong.

It’s the Battle of the Basement, not the Battle of Ontario now. They’re both weak, just in different ways.

by The Tif on Jul 8, 2011 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions

comparison

I think

In Goal: Sens > Leafs (Anderson > Reimer, Auld > gustaffson).

On D: Sens < Leafs right now (Phaneuf and Liles > Karlsson and Gonchar) but that will change once Rundblad and Cowen are full time

Up front: sens < Leafs right now as well. Leafs have a lot of decent secondary scorers whereas Sens only have Spez at the high end and Michalek and Alfie (at this point) as secondary type scorers.

Outside of goals, the Leafs have more seasoned/reliable guys than the Sens, but I think Ottawa’s current lineup has a higher ceiling once they get some experience.

by Joebo on Jul 8, 2011 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions

also

our prospects have a higher ceiling.

Cowen, Rundblad, and Karlsson could all be top 2 calibre D,
Silvferberg and Zibenejad, Butler, Prince and Peumpel could all be top six cailibre.

I know Toronto has some young D, but they are lacking in young F.

we also have lots of cap flexibility which is valuable in a few years when we hopefully return to contending status.

by DontfeedtheBelak on Jul 9, 2011 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions

I think Toronto has a shot at finishing higher in the standings this year than Ottawa. However, I like Ottawa’s future prospects more than Toronto’s (mostly based on my biased opinion that Ottawa has more talent in their overall system than Toronto does).

by DW19 on Jul 8, 2011 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions

I would be surprised if Ottawa finished above Toronto.

We don’t have a lot of high talent right now. We have lots of potential though – and I think 2012-2013 we’ll be much stronger and make the playoffs.

Unless our rookies all come together and everyone plays to their potential. We do have a lot of sporadic players, and if they all deliver, we could be the underdog team.

by The Tif on Jul 8, 2011 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions

Toronto absolutely finishes above Ottawa this year.

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by DarrenM on Jul 8, 2011 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions

Yeah, there's little doubt about that in my opinion

On paper, anyway. It’s technically possible that everything can go right for Ottawa and everything wrong for Toronto so the Sens finish higher, but there’s very little chance of that—it would take a minor miracle.

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by Peter Raaymakers on Jul 9, 2011 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions

Well both we and Toronto went through similar rebuilds

and we continue to do the same but we actually had a core where as they added their core through free agency and trades which method do u think is best?

by Senator26 on Jul 8, 2011 4:00 PM EDT reply actions

I think getting the right players matters more than the method of acquiring them

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by Mark Parisi on Jul 8, 2011 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions

FA is dangerous.

More expensive contracts, less time (or more time). It’s a gamble – while we can bury a small contract in the minors, a larger one doesn’t have that luxury. But a 5 year contract at $3.2 (numbers made) are great if they deliver results.

by The Tif on Jul 8, 2011 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions

I think the last 5 years have pretty much proven you build through the draft and around home grown players. Trying to build a winner through free agency is just a road to ruin in the current NHL. The Leafs really refused to acknowledge they were going through a rebuild and are going to pay for it. I think the exact same thing is happening in Calgary.

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by modsuperstar on Jul 8, 2011 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions

Very true

when did toronto actually start rebuilding all jokes aside?

by Senator26 on Jul 8, 2011 4:05 PM EDT reply actions

The Lockout?

But seriously: when Burke arrived, in my eyes, he def made no bones about it that he wanted to tear the team to its bear bones and start over, and start right (in his image).

For the first time, he looks to be on the right track. Komi is a 7th D, and the goaltending may be young and good, for the first time in forever (Potvin)

by DontfeedtheBelak on Jul 8, 2011 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions

He's made mistakes

But by acquiring droves and droves of prospects through trade and free agency, he’s made up for some of them. There have been some pretty astute signings that made the terrible ones look okay.

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by Peter Raaymakers on Jul 8, 2011 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions

He's not afraid to cut players who don't fit.

I can respect that. We’d still have Versteeg if he came to Ottawa – Toronto dumped him when it was clear it wasn’t working.

by The Tif on Jul 8, 2011 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions

Toronto

would be pretty good actually. If they had a #1 Center. They don’t. Those things are really had to come by and they are expensive (See recent UFA contracts). TO has young talent in every other position and that talent is further along (though not necessarily more talented) than Ottawa’s. But because Ottawa has Spezza, I think they will surpass TO after this year in a large way.

by timac on Jul 8, 2011 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions

Agreed.

If they got a true #1 center to feed Kessel, they’d be a lot more dangerous. Kessel needs help, and he’s not getting it. Kadri might be that, but needs grooming for the position.

by The Tif on Jul 8, 2011 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions

That’s the funny thing, they had a #1 centre for 10 years and the complaint was he had no talent to play with. Sundin leaves and now they have wingers but no #1 pivot.

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by modsuperstar on Jul 8, 2011 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions

Wick

didn’t get as much of a thorough shot as the other rookies last year, but you have to assume that this was because the scouts and coaches weren’t liking what they saw in him as much as what they saw in the other guys. And they obviously know pretty well who is bringing the goods. They also likely knew it was “one-way or the highway” for him this year and chose deliberately not to go with the one-way. Management simply doesn’t have confidence in him based on his play last year. I have to assume that they know what they’re doing. Unless, of course he blows-up in Sweden and comes back as a top six powerhouse signed by the Leafs in the following year. Then we suck.

by timac on Jul 8, 2011 4:37 PM EDT reply actions

He's Swiss :)

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by Mark Parisi on Jul 8, 2011 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions

Spent all his time in the neutral zone.

STOP BEING SO IMPARTIAL AND MAKE A MOVE ALREADY!

by The Tif on Jul 8, 2011 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

Rec'd

Oh Captain, my Captain!

by AlfieGirl on Jul 11, 2011 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions

holy frig! what the hell were you thinking bringing this up again?

Didn’t you see all the posts above? This Silver Nuggets post could end up being the snake that ate it’s tale. The resulting implosion could wipe Sens fandom off the map… (i leave you to decide if that ends up being a bad thing)

by west-sider on Jul 8, 2011 10:08 PM EDT up reply actions