Senators sign Zenon Konopka to one-year deal
by Peter Raaymakers on Jul 5, 2011 1:03 PM EDT
in Ottawa Senators breaking news
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PrintAccording to multiple reports on Twitter, the Ottawa Senators have signed tough guy Zenon Konopka to a one-year, one-way contract worth $700k.
Konopka spent last season with the New York Islanders, and as you can see from his stats line above, scoring isn't exactly his forte; he was second in the league in fighting majors last season with 25, which made up a good portion of his 307 PIMs. Konopka is well-known in Ottawa, having spent four years as an Ottawa 67 in the OHL, and his popularity hasn't faded since those days. He is also another valuable member of the Zenate Reform, bringing yet another Z onto the Senators' lineup.
The Senators just got a lot tougher, and were already a tough team with the likes of Matt Carkner, Zack Smith, and Chris Neil all willing and anxious to drop their gloves, plus Francis Lessard on a two-way deal and expected to play in Binghamton. It may seem like overkill, but one things for sure: Few teams will be taking liberties with the Senators' young players and stars next season.
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Ugh
One way? So the roster is preeetty much set. Have fun at training camp, forwards.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHbj53fZx2Y
That's Lessard in the minors then!
Thank god for that
So disappointed...
So much for Bryan Murray staying out of the free agency pool. This signing is so unnecessary. We’ve got lots of toughness with Carkner, Neil & Z. Smith. We’ve got lots of depth in the bottom 6 already. Jason Spezza was in the top 10 in faceoffs last season so he isn’t necessary there. I love the character of a guy like Konopka, however he’s just taking a roster spot from someone else. Can’t wait to hear BM’s explaination on why he decided to bring this guy in.
Foligno – Z.Smith – Neil
Greening – Winchester – Condra
It's definitely unexpected
We were looking for a top six player, weren’t we?
On the other hand, he’s signed as a fourth-line player, he’s a guy who can be a fourth line player, and he will keep opponents honest on the ice. It’s strange that the bottom six is so close to set, but of the players available, Konopka wasn’t a bad choice at all.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Jul 5, 2011 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions
This probably bumps Winchester
But he wasn’t particularly useful. Not good enough to be a third liner, not tough enough to be a fourth. So if Zenon takes his spot, I can live with it. For one year, anyway.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHbj53fZx2Y
But then where does Winchwinder go?
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by Peter Raaymakers on Jul 5, 2011 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Seems like training camp just got a lot more important for him
He’s going to have to earn his spot now
Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs
Training camp is important for lots of people
I have a feeling that there will be deals made after training camp. Carkner springs to mind, but Winchester is another player who may be made available if his play in camp isn’t up to snuff.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Jul 5, 2011 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, it feels like a lot of guys are going to have to battle for spots
I’m not bothered by that at all
Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs
Agreed
After first hearing about this, the first thing that came to mind was that perhaps Carkner may be on the move, or might just be in line for a lot of healthy scratches in order to make room for one of the young dmen.
Carkner
This was my. thought too. We need to make 2 roster openings for Cowen and Rundblad and Carkner is surely to be one of them.
I don't think Cowen will play this year.
Give him one year in the AHL, then move him up next year when Kuba is done.
No, he isn't
The only plus Winchester has going for him relative to Konopka is that he’s homegrown in the organization. Yet, Konopka is also strongly tied to Ottawa, so that’s almost moot.
Winchester is a prototypical plug. Package him up and send him away for another asset.
Well looking at points
The two are pretty close in faceoff percentages, and last season Winchester doubled the production with less than a quarter of Konopka’s PIMs. I don’t see what our roster is missing that makes Konopka a better option than Winchester, considering we already have 3 guys who fight pretty often and a fourth available to call up (although I’ve certainly seen more than enough of Lessard).
It’s not like our young guys were getting beaten to a pulp last year. I don’t see the reasoning behind this signing at all, and I’m worried that we’re now losing a roster spot that could have gone to someone who does anything else. I’m not saying we don’t need fighters or grit on our roster, but we had enough of it without signing someone who’s also got a reputation for playing dirty (and the penalties that go along with that kind of reputation) and who doesn’t bring anything additional to our roster that we were missing.
Oh Captain, my Captain!
You're automatically branding PIMs as a negative, though
With Konopka, the PIMs are why you bring him on board. And it doesn’t mean he’s a liability; his 307 PIMS came from 25 majors, 10 misconducts, 2 game misconducts, and just 31 minor penalties; Konopka actually had fewer minor penalties than Chris Neil (who had 35), despite the fact that he had almost 100 more PIMs overall.
I’d say that Konopka does offer more in overall value to an NHL team than Winchester. I’m as much a fan of Winchester as anyone you’ll find, but he’s always just there; there don’t seem to be special plays offensively or defensively. Konopka has the potential to change the direction of a game with a fight, a hit, or a high-energy shift.
Oh, and he’s cheaper than Winchester, too.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Jul 5, 2011 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I've never understood why PIMs are supposed to be a good thing.
How is any penalty – especially from a player with a reputation for being dirty, which a lot of the time makes it more likely that he’ll be taking penalties and often leaving his team shorthanded – a good thing?
Oh Captain, my Captain!
Fighting can be a good thing
And fighting results in PIMs. I’m not saying PIMs are a good thing, just that they are a necessary evil sometimes.
I’m making the distinction between majors and minors, too. Majors rarely result in your team being short-handed, while minors usually do. So they should be considered separately.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Jul 5, 2011 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Sure,
I can see why majors might be considered a good thing since they often come from fights.
But misconducts? How is a misconduct ever a good thing?
Oh Captain, my Captain!
I don't think I said it would be
It’s just not a bad thing, because the team doesn’t end up short-handed as a result.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Jul 5, 2011 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions
No you didn't
But I still don’t see how a misconduct is not a bad thing. You’re also shorting your bench, potentially for a lot of the game. That’s a bad thing, no?
Oh Captain, my Captain!
You’re not really handcuffing your team, though, because the guy who gets the misconduct isn’t one who would have played much, anyway.
Konopka averages, what, 10 minutes TOI a game? The shortening of the bench for the duration of the misconduct is almost a non-issue.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Jul 5, 2011 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Depends what the misconduct is for
If the misconduct is over a fight, and your main role is as a fighter, your job is done at that point. The game will likely either calm down or escalate past 1-on-1 fights.
by B_T on Jul 5, 2011 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I disagree
Just because you fought and got penalized doesn’t at all mean that the 1-on-1 fights are done for the game. It just means that now someone else needs to do the fighting.
Oh Captain, my Captain!
It's no guarantee
But misconducts are usually the Refs sending a message. At that point, games usually go one way or the other. They quiet down or spiral out of control (ie: brawls).
by B_T on Jul 5, 2011 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions
It all depends on the player's role
And I’m not sure where you’re getting that Konopka has a reputation for being dirty. He’s a fighter, not a dirty player.
by B_T on Jul 5, 2011 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Fair enough
I don’t have a source for that or anything.
But we already have guys who fight – and do other things well too. Konopka fights…. and does well in faceoffs, but we already have guys who do that just as well (or better)… Still not seeing a reason for the deal.
I’m all for fighters. But I’d like them to be able to do something else on top of the fighting.
Oh Captain, my Captain!
Consider him more of a Ruutu replacement
Same number of minors, similar point production, but can win face-offs and fight.
by B_T on Jul 5, 2011 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions
And about half as much
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by Peter Raaymakers on Jul 5, 2011 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Makes more sense than anything I've read so far
But we sacrifice Carkner for a new Ruutu? Or Winchester? I don’t buy it.
Also, I guess this puts an end to my hope that they’ll re-sign Shannon, eh?
Oh Captain, my Captain!
I’d imagine Winchester is better from a “keeping the puck in the offensive zone, away from their team” stand point, and a better defensive player overall.
Silver Seven: the Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators blogs.
Better defensively, for sure
Not so sure he’s better at keeping the puck in the offensive zone, though. I’d have to see zone time stats to be sure, though. I just don’t really ever recall Winchester being much of an influence in the final outcome of a game on many (if any) occasions.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Jul 5, 2011 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I recall Winchester often doing a good job cycling in the offensive zone and forechecking well and it not resulting in scoring chances or goals.
Silver Seven: the Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators blogs.
Well he's got better production
And he just always seems to be putting so much effort in. Not to mention I really thought he developed well once the space opened up in the roster last season after all the trades.
Oh Captain, my Captain!
Just for fun
Here’s the 6th Sens article (previously linked on S7S) railing against the idea of a Konopka signing.
From Twitter:
BREAKING: The Ottawa Sun have announced they are quitting sports “jounalism” stating “all of our dreams have been realized.” #Sens
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by Peter Raaymakers on Jul 5, 2011 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't like it, but I don't mind it.
The bottom six was set – it could move Foligno up to the second line given the right opportunity? I dunno.
I think where Foligno plays in entirely up to him
He has shown at times he has the talent to fulfil a 2nd line winger role. If he is productive and consistent they will put him in that slot.
If he is the same player he has been the last 2 years, he fits great with Smith and Neil on the 3rd line.
I don’t think the addition of Konopka will push Foligno up the depth chart.
Hasn't Foligno had more than enough opportunities at becoming Top-6 at this point?
Oh Captain, my Captain!
I think if the team thought that he wouldn't be here any more
I think he’s a great fit on the 3rd line – see above – but at the same time, he has shown potential to pot 20 goals in the past. If he can put it together and earn top 6 minutes I don’t think the team is going to say “thats great that you can score now, but we’re still only going to give you 12 minutes a game” If he’s scoring, he’s playing top 6. Its up to him.
Maybe we're not on the same point
But my point was that, in the last couple of seasons, Foligno has had lots of chances to play in the top 6 and play top 6 minutes, and it just hasn’t lived up to this magical potential that he apparently has. So I’m confused why it would seem like a great idea to sign someone to replace him in the bottom 6 and bump him up when he hasn’t lived up to those chances before.
Unless there’s a deal in the works for him or someone else, but I doubt it’s a finally-give-Foligno-a-chance-for-the-top-6 move.
Oh Captain, my Captain!
Yeah I get that it's up to him
I just don’t see why we would continue giving him more chances when he hasn’t taken advantage of the ones he’s already gotten.
Oh Captain, my Captain!
Special circumstances
Two seasons ago was a write-off for him given his mother passed on. I don’t think you can fault him for his play last year. He isn’t the only player that had a bad season. That was a whole team deal.
Personally I give everyone a clean slate to start the season and pretend last year didn’t happen. New coaches, new faces, new philosophy, new opportunity. Everyone at ground zero & go get what you can.
I'm not willing to chalk his entire 2009-2010 season up to his mother passing away
Obviously it would have been an incredibly difficult time, but an entire season?
And yes last season was hard on pretty much everyone. But some players did step up and do well when space opened up for them in the top 6 and had career years.
I’m not saying Foligno is a bad player by any means, but I’d much rather give those chances to a newer prospect at this point. Someone who hasn’t gotten those chances yet, or who got them briefly and showed promise. If Foligno wants that kind of chance again, I really think he needs to fight his way up the roster and earn it, and I don’t see this deal making him do that.
Oh Captain, my Captain!
See example: Wade Redden
Was never the same player again after his mother passed on.
I never once suggested that signing Zenon Konopka would push Foligno into a top 6 role. I’m just saying there are spaces in the top 6 up for grabs. He will be given an opportunity to take that role in training camp and the early portion of the season, same as 3 or 4 other guys. It will be up to him to take advantage.
At this point, I just think it's unlikely to be Foligno
Unless they decide he needs more chances to live up to his potential and stick him there despite someone else. If it’s based on merit, my money’s on it being someone else.
Oh Captain, my Captain!
You have to remember
Foligno is still only 23 years old. No he hasn’t produced as much as we’d probably like, but he’s still pretty young. He’s shown the potential, it’s consistency that he lacks. He also had a bit of bad luck when he broke his leg during his mini run a couple years ago.
Not more than bottom six
Expecting Foligno to be more than a bottom six forward is a recipe for upset. He’s made a handful of great offensive plays in his career, and for the most part he gets his chances and does not finish.
He has his role as a part time agitator, throws a good hit every once in a while, and is pretty good one on one in the corners, and that’s it for Foligno. You can stop hoping that he’ll become anything other than that.
That's flawed
Obviously the death of a parent is a huge moment in everyone’s life, but some of Redden’s best hockey came right after the passing of his mother. I think the changes to the game were significantly more important in the decline of his game than the death of his mother.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Jul 5, 2011 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions
#*!@
#*!@ you Murray is my initial reaction. I will now go away to cool down.
An Ottawa Senators supporter in Toronto, Ontario. I am cool like that.
by Adnan on Jul 5, 2011 1:28 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Winchester stats 4G 9A -9 42PIM
On a bad team with no goaltending and poor defense.
Winchester is a good 2-way player – can take a regular shift on the PK and will actually contribute on offense. I do not believe the the pugilism of Konopka should usurp Winchester.
As I said, I do like the character of Konopka. He’ll likely be a fan favourite. I just don’t think we need him. We have enough guys to fill out the bottom 6. He potentially takes away a development roster spot for a player with a stellar training camp due to the one way contract.
Konopka seems to be
Finding decent faceoff statistics is like pulling teeth….
by B_T on Jul 5, 2011 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Well in any event
As the 6th Sens article on this pointed out, Ottawa was 11th in the NHL last year in faceoffs. Granted some of that was the dearly departed Chris Kelly, but we stayed pretty solid in that department after he left. I thought Winchester became one of our go-to faceoff guys…
Oh Captain, my Captain!
Based on what (very) limited stats I can find
Winchester and Konopka were about on par for faceoffs.
by B_T on Jul 5, 2011 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions
So roughly the same
But Winchester had double the point production and less than a quarter of the PIMs.
Oh Captain, my Captain!
Stats out the wazoo
According to NHL.com Konopka was 57.7% on face-offs. I didn’t look up Winchester.
by Pmoron on Jul 5, 2011 2:20 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Good, good.
Definitely good. In March (or so) I remember Spezza being 58% which was 8th best in the league. So Z can’t be more than a few spots behind. That makes me feel lots better about it actually. Face-off wins are like free offence and might help the young guys out a little. But what do I know?
by Pmoron on Jul 5, 2011 3:08 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Konopka is one of the best face off men in the league
Would often take draws for the Islanders then head off the ice. In terms of this type of player, so much better than a Lessard, because he can actually do something else (take draws) and do it very well.
When did we develop this apparent need for an amazing faceoff guy?
Seriously, 11th in the league last season, which isn’t too shabby considering the trainwreck that the season was. Why do we all of a sudden need someone whose upside is faceoffs and fighting? Seriously, we already had plenty of guys to do the fighting, and our faceoffs were fine. What is the point of this deal?
Oh Captain, my Captain!
I'm in the sort of camp on this deal
I don’t hate it, I don’t love it, but because Konopka brings more to the team, it means we don’t have to see Lessard in the NHL, and I support that.
I honestly do not understand what motivated the deal
If someone can explain the upside to me, I’m happy to listen and be convinced. But right now the only upsides I see are: former 67 (which really doesn’t count for much), and it keeps Lessard in Bingo (but I didn’t see much of a chance of Lessard making the team this year anyway).
I honestly do not see what in hell motivated Murray to do this. Unless there’s a trade or demotion coming, but any of the names that have been thrown about in that regard seem (to me, at least) like considerably better options than Konopka.
Oh Captain, my Captain!
Here are a few
I’m in the ‘sort of’ camp, too, but I see the reasons for the deal as apparently as I see the reasons against it:
1. Toughness and intimidation
2. Faceoffs
3. Penalty killing
4. Good character in the dressing room
Konopka won’t change the team, but he might change the team’s attitude for the better. He doesn’t apologize, and I’d like to see the Senators re-gain some of their former swagger.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Jul 5, 2011 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
We lost a pest in Ruutu. He could bring that back.
Plus, it’s only one year. I think it’s more an insurance policy than anything else, in case they think that our younger guys could use another year.
We needed a go-to penalty killer? Or character in the dressing room?
I’m not trying to say that he doesn’t fill a role in the NHL. I’m saying I don’t see him as representing anything that was missing from our team beforehand. This signing could totally make sense elsewhere (and one of the Habs fans at work was really pissed because he wanted Konopka in the bleu-blanc-rouge), but I don’t see it fitting well with what Ottawa has and needs.
Oh Captain, my Captain!
Yes, on both counts
A penalty killer because Ruutu, Fisher, and Kelly were all just dealt away, and they were three of our best penalty killers.
A character in the dressing room because he improves the team dynamic. In a rebuilding situation more than ever, you want players playing for one another more than for individual success; guys like Konopka and Neil keep teammates honest as often as they keep opponents in line.
If you check out my twitter, I just RT’ed some glowing messages from Grabner and Moulson about how they loved playing with Konopka. The Islanders aren’t exactly the standard-bearer for rebuilding teams, but young guys obviously like the guy. That’s the kind of leadership you can’t find everywhere.
Anyway, I find myself now arguing the role of a player like Konopka in the NHL. That doesn’t necessarily mean I’m fully in support of him coming to Ottawa; there are still questions I have, but it will take time before they’re answered.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Jul 5, 2011 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Did our PK get worse after the trades?
I thought we’d still managed to do okay. But granted our go-to players are for the most part gone.
But I’m really skeptical on character in the dressing room, considering the state of the team (and the continued presence of Alfie, Spezza, Neil and Phillips, all of whom I’d lump into that playing-for-the-good-of-the-team-rather-than-individual-success category).
Again I totally see the point of this kind of role. Just not on this team, given what they were working with before this signing.
Oh Captain, my Captain!
OK
By now you have established your point that you don’t get the point of this deal.
In an effort to help you understand, and to re-iterate what has been said thus far, I’ll explain how Ottawa is significantly improving in three tangible areas with this acquisition.
1. Faceoffs.
So Ottawa was 11th in the league. You talk as if that’s good enough, when in fact there is ample room for improvement. Konopka is an absolute ace. Believe it or not, he is better at taking faceoffs than Jesse Winchester. Fact. He will largely be trusted with the assignment of winning the defensive zone start, instead of using an offensive force like Spezza to do dirty work. Expect Spezza to see more offensive zone starts as a result, and likely, a marginal increase in scoring. Quite frankly, I don’t see this as a matter of debate; the team is now in a position to be better at faceoffs.
2. Toughness.
Konopka will likely assume the lions share of fighting majors on this team. This is an excellent point in favor of this signing, because it has a positive domino effect on the roster. For instance, Neil plays his best when he decreases his amount of fights (see his stat line when McGrattan was here), and focuses on bodychecking defencemen into next week, and crashing the crease looking for garbage. Carkner, assuming he stays on board, is an absolute heavyweight, but it is never ideal to have your team’s sheriff on the back end. He misses shifts and disrupts the flow of the game by sitting off for five. And Z Smith, though a willing combatant, doesn’t scare opponents into changing their ways. Additionally, we certainly have more youth to protect this year relative to September 2010. Finally, if we move one of Neil or Carkner, we won’t roll over and die with Konopka in our arsenal. Again, I don’t see how these points are up for debate; Konopka’s acquisition takes pressure off our multi-dimensional fighters.
3. Accountability.
The dude is 30. Not over the hill, but he’s got the type of hockey experience that would make Don Cherry gush. And he leverages that experience properly in the dressing room, by all accounts. Phillips and Alfredsson are our veteran leaders, but they’re non-vocal types. Having a trustworthy voice of reason on the roster is never a bad thing, and the young’uns will appreciate his presence- believe that.
So all this comes at the apparent expense of a plug like Jesse Winchester. I say well done, Bryan.
by LeTigre on Jul 5, 2011 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
According to the stats Pmoron and B_T quoted above Knopka was 2 percent better than Winchester was last year. Maybe a marginal improvement, but hardly decisive.
And as far as him being the team’s heavyweight, I think it’s fairly clear that since the lock-out NHL team’s don’t need a heavyweight to be successful because of the new rules and the diminished role of fighting.
That you’re touting Knopka’s skill-set and putting down Jessie Winchester as a ‘plug’ in the same breath is frankly ridiculous. Winchester is an excellent skater, tough to handle along the boards and as others have noted provides a good two-way spark for a bottom-6 pivot.
I realize he’ll be a fan fave because the kind of intangibles he’s purported to have are much romanticised by Sens fans. And if was signed mainly to serve in a leadership purpose so be it. But I don’t think there’s any way to seriously claim he’s a better 4th line option than Winchester.
Cannot play with 'em, cannot win with 'em, cannot coach with 'em. Cant do it.
Thanks for making my point about faceoffs for me
And I seriously doubt the team would “roll over and die” if either of Carks or Neil was moved, even without Konopka in the lineup.
As for ZSmith’s scariness, I don’t really think that fighters scare other teams into playing clean. Sure there’s the odd guy who you’d like to avoid hits from, but even then it’s not really a deterrent.
I also never said Konopka was over the hill. I totally understand his role in the NHL, I just still don’t think there’s a huge need for it on this team that justifies replacing someone else with him. You want to talk intangibles that the fans love? What about someone who is always trying so hard? We loved it in Kelly, and I loved seeing Winchester turn into that last season.
We’ll see in training camp, but this is far from a hands down decision.
Oh Captain, my Captain!
Jesse Winchester took 545 faceoffs. Zenon Konopka took 1075 faceoffs.
Konopka won more faceoffs than Winchester took.
Again, Konopka had a significantly better percentage than Winchester, despite taking two faceoffs for every one Winchester took.
If we can extrapolate this further, it means our 4th line will start with the puck 2% more often (a good thing), and Konopka can ‘pinch hit’ in the defensive zone where Winchester couldn’t, or didn’t, by subbing in on our other lines when we really need a win.
This means that Spezza has to take fewer defensive zone faceoffs. Another good thing, because his ice time will be focused moreso in the offensive zone where it should be.
So I am adamant, Andrew J, that it is indeed a decisive improvement. And AlfieGirl, Konopka is notorious for trying hard and bringing intangibles. $20 says you and your girlfriends will be rocking Konopka jerseys by Christmas.
Significantly better? Have you ever taken a statistics class?
They’re different players. If you’re arguing that Konopka is absolutely, hands down better, I disagree. Repeating yourself won’t convince me.
I just don’t want to see Winchester dropped from the roster to make room for Konopka. You seriously think this team is short on intangibles?
And if I thought there was any way I could collect on that bet, I’d take it in a heartbeat. We may warm to Konopka, but no one I go to hockey games with takes jerseys so lightly as to get one customized after 20 games.
Oh Captain, my Captain!
No need to get personal
In LeTigre’s defence, two percent is a significant difference when you’re talking about faceoffs. It doesn’t seem like a lot, but multiplied by numbers such as we’re dealing it, it makes a big difference.
As for Winchester and Konopka, we’ll probably have to wait until after training camp to find out what will happen.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Jul 6, 2011 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions
At Konopka's faceoff count
That 2% translates roughly into 1 extra faceoff win every 4 games.
At Winchester’s faceoff count, that’s roughly 1 extra win every 7 games.
I would not consider either of those to be a significant difference.
by B_T on Jul 6, 2011 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions
Fair enough
But 2% is not a high enough percentage to automatically call it significant. Different sample sizes are a fair criticism, but I’m really not willing to say 2% is clearly significant, even in the context of faceoffs.
Really what it comes down to is that they’re different kinds of players. Winchester is not an amateur version of Konopka. I take issue with saying that apples are definitely better than oranges. That’s all.
Oh Captain, my Captain!
Fair enough
I’d certainly agree with that.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Jul 6, 2011 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I wouldn't say the different sample sizes are a fair criticism at all
Both sample bases are large enough to be valid, and the difference in size could very well be due to the teams and not the players.
Both players had similar TOIs, so the question becomes why Konopka saw roughly twice as many face-offs as Winchester. Was he being sent out for more, or were there just more that came up while he was out on the ice?
by B_T on Jul 6, 2011 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Both large enough to be valid maybe
But I can understand treating similar percentages differently when they come from drastically different sample sizes.
As for why Winchy saw fewer faceoffs, I’m guessing it had something to do with Kelly and Spezza both being even better. It didn’t really become Winchester’s thing until Kelly was gone, right?
Oh Captain, my Captain!
That probably factors into it, but I’ve heard that there were many times when Konopka was put on the ice just to take the faceoff, and then left the ice ASAP after doing so.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Jul 6, 2011 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Remember, margin of error works on a curve
Konopka’s faceoff count would yield a margin of error of just under 3%, while Winchester’s would yield a MoE of just over 4%.
Doubling the base does not double the accuracy.
by B_T on Jul 6, 2011 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions
No of course not
By my (limited) statistics education did drill into me the common mistake of not considering sample sizes. It may not affect the margin of error, but on face value I’m hesitant to equate results based on different sample sizes. Smaller sample size decreases the reliability of your result and makes it harder to say whether it’s significant.
Oh Captain, my Captain!
It's usually only at the low end that it's actually a mistake
Once you’re into the sample sizes of 500+ it’s generally only a matter of how reliable you feel the need to be. In this case, the margin of error on either of their fo% is larger than the difference between their fo%, so the difference in sample size is marginal.
by B_T on Jul 6, 2011 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh, it would make a difference if you were breaking the stat down though
Like offensive zone faceoffs on home ice, or something like that. Larger sample sizes allow you to break out sub-stats without losing too much reliability.
by B_T on Jul 6, 2011 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Faceoffs...
The difference?
Jesse Winchester is not used in key faceoff situations. IE he is not up against the best.
Why
Despite our several past discussion on why he’s not needed, I get the sense that BM is covering his bases in terms of depth.
Even though apparently Konopka doesn’t fit in the starting lineup, injuries happen to every team each year, and prospects don’t always live up to their billing. He’s also a good hedge in case someone makes an offer for Neil anytime up to the trade deadline that BM can’t refuse.
That said, I’m not sure why BM is handing out so many 1-way contracts. I would like this better if Condra and Greening had 2-ways. Maybe BM had to offer guaranteed money to keep these guys?
Agreed
I agree Joebo, I think this is a depth move. I mean maybe Konopka was signed to be the Sens 2nd line centre next season, but I kind of doubt that. More likely he is a depth guy and he and Winchester will be battling for minutes as the 4th line centre. Some nights they might end up playing together with one of them on the wing.
Carkner is dunzo
I’d be willing to bet this means Carks is gone or being shipped out. The team has a glut of young d-men and not enough spots for them. Signing Konopka makes up for the toughness loss if Carkner is no longer in the equation.
I don't think you'll be seeing any defensemen move out.
Until we get into the season some. Ideally I believe the team is hoping for a good 1st couple of months out of Kuba/Gonchar and then due to injuries, shakeups or strechrun pushes a team makes a move to aquire one of them for a 2nd/3rd/4th round pick.
You can never have enough defensemen in the system & we saw last year with Brian Lee that BM doesn’t mind too much having a guy around for a few months not getting into any games. I don’t think you’ll see Carkner go anywhere, and I don’t know that there is a market for him right now either.
I think there is a market for Carkner
And I think that’s exactly why he’d be the guy from that blue line to go. Carkner is cheap, capable defensively, and a good enforcer. He’d fit in to any team as a 6-7 defender.
The bottom line is that the Senators need to make room on the blue line. They’re not trading either of Phillips or Karlsson. It’s unlikely any of Gonchar, Kuba, or Lee would be sought after on the market. That leaves Carkner attracting some interest from teams looking for a depth defender.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Jul 5, 2011 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I just don't see it yet...
There are too many unknowns. i.e. Runblad, Cowen, Gryba, Weircioch may have poor camps, or it may be decided that they need a couple months in AHL before they are ready for NHL similar to Karlsson 2 years ago. I think they keep all the defense in place till November before they make a move. The money isn’t an issue, and all you’re likely to get in return for Carkner is a 5th round pick or later. So why the rush to get rid of him?
Agreed
Why rush when later in the season someone might take Kuba or Gonchar or (dare I hope?) Lee off our hands as the trade deadline gets closer. If any of them have an improvement over last season, I don’t think it’s entirely impossible.
Oh Captain, my Captain!
Forgot about Lee
It is possible with the way Lee finished the season that he has usurped Carkner on the depth chart. His game & size/strength has come a very long way from the time he first arrived.
Lee is doing better, but he needs playing time - the more he plays the better he looks.
He’s much better now he’s got some size on him.
I still have faith in Lee. When paired with Phillips they make a reasonable defensive pairing. Shipping out a guy who could be on the cusp of blossoming makes little to no sense. He was a Muckler pick, but he was also a first round talent regardless. Sometimes it takes time to develop players and Murray knows that.
I'm not saying they should ship him out now
But if he has a good first half of a season and someone makes an offer for him, ship him out then and make room for Cowen or someone else.
Oh Captain, my Captain!
Hahaha... cusp of blossoming?
Blossoming into a solid number-six defender?
Once again, no disrespect to Lee, but he is not in the same conversation as prospects like Rundblad and Cowen. If he needs to move to make room for them, then it’s just what happens. Players are moved when better replacements are waiting in the wings.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Jul 5, 2011 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree he doesn’t have the same ceiling, but I see him as maybe a 3-4. I find I’d just like to give Lee and Murray the benefit of the doubt, as I think he did prove many of his naysayers wrong last year, I’d like to at least see him build on what he managed last year.
by modsuperstar on Jul 5, 2011 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions
How did he prove nay-sayers wrong?
He’s a mediocre defenseman. Competent in the NHL, but will never be a star defenseman and that is that. I’m all for him staying in the NHL, but I want that spot for one of our exciting young prospects.
Oh Captain, my Captain!
I know a lot of people at the start of last season were questioning why he was signed to an extension. He sat for a good chunk of the season then proceeded to fight his way up the depth chart, eventually displacing Carkner in the top 6. I think the issue is we have Phillips, Kuba and Gonchar, so they are taking up spots that could viably go to younger players.
That's not a problem with me
I’d much rather have one of our rookies playing with Phillips, Kuba, or Gonchar than Lee.
I’m still wondering why he was signed to an extension, especially on a one-way contract.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Jul 6, 2011 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Seriously.
And didn’t Lee only get into the top 6 because Carkner was hurt? It’s not like his play wowed Murray and made him rethink whether Carks belonged there – Carkner couldn’t play, so Lee got to suit up again.
Oh Captain, my Captain!
I agree nothing is inevitable
I think any move will wait until after training camp. The team will have a better idea of what they’ve got and which of the youngsters are ready to play in the NHL.
It’s something the Senators have done many times in the past: Start training camp with too many defencemen, and get rid of whoever doesn’t fit.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Jul 5, 2011 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't see a need to get rid of anyone
True we’ll only dress 7 and only 6 will play, but #8 and #9 can wait in the minors for injury.
I don’t think moving Carkner would return anything significantly better than keeping him in the minors or press box in case of injury. If someone offers a 2nd round draft pick, or wants Carks as part of a package in return for a top-6 forward (maybe motivated by cap issues) then ok move him, but there’s really no reason to move him just for the sake of making things look nice on paper.
But what do we gain?
What do the Senators gain by holding on to Carkner this year, and then letting him walk next year when one of the defensive prospects comes up?
Carkner’s story has been awesome and I’m really happy that he’s an Ottawa Senator right now, but this team is getting better. If better players are ready to take his spot, unfortunately, it means it’s not his spot anymore.
If we get a fifth rounder for him, that’s beside the point; the point is clearing the way for developing prospects to develop in the NHL while the team is undergoing a rebuild.
But we’ll see. Training camp will go a long way in showing whether or not Cowen and/or Rundblad are ready to play up here. If they’re not, there’s no discussion: Carkner stays.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Jul 5, 2011 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Giving himself options
I think Murray right now is giving himself lots of options and he will decide which way to go based on how things shake out this fall. Signing Konopka gives him the ability to trade either Winchester or Carkner, but he doesn’t necessarily have to do that. He has options and that is probably for the best given how uncertain things are likely to be this fall.
They can always trade him in February
I’m skeptical that there’s huge interest in him right now or that there’s no room for him at this point, and I could see Carkner fetching a decent return as a rental.
But like you said – training camp will decide it.
Oh Captain, my Captain!
I think Carkner has been a good dude with the organization.
You get a chance to trade him to somewhere else, you give him an opportunity to play. They reward that, and it’ll look good in the eyes of (depth) players – which we’ll need for a deep playoff run.
Carkner if anyone
The time to move a dman is at the end of training camp when injuries and unfulfilled expectations force a few teams to fill out their dmen depth. No one is going to magically take on our problems. I agree with Peter that Carkner is the most marketable one of them for teams that want to get tougher.
Training camp plus contract situation will decide who gets to be #6, #7 and #8 dman.
This was my initial reaction as well
And it could very well be the case. The other possibility is just that Murray wants to prevent Carkner from fighting so that we’re not playing with 5 D as often.
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Also true...
Most times when Carkner fought last year it was a good trade off for the other team. Really missed Carkner on the PK when he was serving time for fighting.
I don’t see how this helps in that regard?
Say Brad Marchand takes a run at Regin or Michalek. Konopka goes after him, Marchand walks away and the Bruins get a powerplay. Or…Konopka takes the defensive zone faceoff, then bobbles the puck away because he doesn’t have great passing skills and the opposing team gets a goal or better offensive chances.
To me, this is a signing destined to mollify the “meathead” section of the fanbase and to make a potentially long season at the bottom of the standings more bearable through fisticuffs and an “Ottawa Boy” factor. Seems bad.
by Quizzical Quorum on Jul 5, 2011 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't see Konopka as a deterrent to someone else fighting
It’s not like Carkner will back down from a fight and wait for Konopka to take over. I don’t buy it.
Oh Captain, my Captain!
That's what line-up juggling is for
If they’re both on the ice and Carkner is the first one to the action, sure. But if Konopka gets there first, or if MacLean sees a fight coming and sends out Konopka instead of Carkner…
by B_T on Jul 5, 2011 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I seriously doubt it
I’d be much more worried about someone like Winchester or ZSmith, neither of whom I’d like to see replaced by Konopka.
Oh Captain, my Captain!
I wouldn't be concerned about Z Smith
He might be part of a grander package, but I doubt he’s being shopped. Winchester may very well be on the market; he’s a good player, but doesn’t seem to offer as much as Zmith.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Jul 5, 2011 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I wasn't thinking shopped
I was thinking Bingo, but I can’t remember whether that’s possible with his contract or not.
Oh Captain, my Captain!
It's possible, they just have to pay him his NHL salary
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Can someone explain to me the significance of a one way contract?
Because the Sens have too many of them. Does that mean they have to have a spot on the NHL team? Or does it have something to do with waivers?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHbj53fZx2Y
It means that regardless of whether they play in the NHL or the AHL, they are guaranteed NHL money.
on a two-way contract, you’re making a different amount of money in the AHL, so the team is more likely to place you in the minors.
Silver Seven: the Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators blogs.
I thought waivers had to do more with age and games played in the NHL, but I could be wrong.
Silver Seven: the Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators blogs.
Interesting
I was definitely opposed to this signing initially, but your point about protecting the young guys makes sense. It’s always nice to have a forward do the fighting but I hope this doesn’t mean Carkner gets traded…
by Pmoron on Jul 5, 2011 2:06 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
That's the only real reason, to me
There doesn’t appear to be much other reasons to sign a guy like Konopka other than to make sure opponents aren’t taking liberties with our other players. If it works, it’d be worth it.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Jul 5, 2011 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions
That's why you're the judge and I'm the... law... talking... guy...
Agreed. Especially since Z was a mind-numbing -16 in 10:00 TOI. yikes.
by Pmoron on Jul 5, 2011 2:23 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
I guess as BM FA signings go....
I can allow this one to pass. $700K for a 4th liner isn’t a bad deal.
It wasn’t Thomas Fleischman or Tim Connoly for $4.5M & 5 years…
It certainly wasn’t Gonchar or Kovalev….
So I guess you could say he has done worse, and he could have done much worse…
Connolly was 2 years (which caused the price to rise) and he is a career 0.8 PPG player
Konopka is good at two things faceoffs and being dirty, you guys are going to hate him
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by JaredFromLondon on Jul 5, 2011 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions
ah, that’s my bad, forgot to add “since being on Buffalo”
well theres my foot in my mouth
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by JaredFromLondon on Jul 5, 2011 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions
I doubt we'll hate him
You guys might end up hating him, but few fans hate pests when they’re on their own team.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Jul 5, 2011 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions
reaching? missed point? how so? Konopka is a shitty player making very little NHL money, that really isn’t impressive
and I was correcting you about the Connolly statement, just as I was corrected above
Y'all Heard About Me, You Just Didn't Know It was Me
by JaredFromLondon on Jul 5, 2011 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
My point was...
…with Bryan Murrays past free agent episodes in mind, I was simply stating that he could have done a lot worse than Konopka for 1 year @ $700K… the amount of money that Fleischman and Connoly signed for would have been bad for Ottawa, given their situation. Had Bryan Murray made a play for either of those two guys for that kind of money, especially given their medical history, it would have been a bad signing for Ottawa – similar to the Gonchar or Kovalev signings.
Yes in terms of money
BM didn’t f up the books with this signing, but I think Jared is making the point that Konopka could be a negative on the ice.
A good signing should be a win in all aspects.
Read the 3rd comment fromt he top for my original thoughts
I haven’t said it is a good signing. I’m saying as far as BM signings go, I can let this one pass. Guy was 7th in the league in faceoffs. If Spezza gets injured at least there is someone to take the draws. Best case, he’s gone in a year.
Yeah
“Could have been worse” is not an automatic pass, in my books. I seriously do not see any point to this deal.
Oh Captain, my Captain!
Carkner
I say down the road this opens up the possible trade of Matt to allow for Cowan to move in.
And you're not the only one saying that
There is some writing on the wall to that effect, for sure.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Jul 5, 2011 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Hell ya
Called this one a month ago. It was too obvious.
Neil does more than fight night in night out. Carkner can’t be asked to fight all the time either because when he misses 5 minutes, he misses a shift or two and handcuffs the D. Also to note, Orr really has done damage to him and he shouldn’t be fighting more than a few times a year.
Konopka will make it very apparent as to what his role is on this team. Protection, no questions asked, and defensive zone starts.
Z Smith – Konopka – Neil is gonna rock the opposition’s boat too. I’m stoked.
by LeTigre on Jul 5, 2011 2:35 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I know the thought is that Carkner is likely to be moved
But what about Chris Neil? I know he provides a lot of leadership to the team and is one of those ‘heart-and-soul’ guys, but as the Fisher trade shows, they can be moved.
If anything, I would say it would be more advantageous for the team to move Neil than Carkner; the return (one hopes) is likely to be better, and it would clear more salary off the books.
Maybe
I’d be surprised if Neil was moved anytime before the deadline, though. His cap hit isn’t too high, but it’s not low, either, especially since anyone who’d be interested in acquiring him is likely a playoff team who’d slot him on the fourth line. He’s also got another years after this one left on the deal, which will further reduce the pool of potential suitors.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Jul 5, 2011 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Does Ottawa even hit the cap floor without Neil, though? I haven’t crunched the numbers yet, but I know they’re pretty close to the floor right now…
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Depends who cracks the roster
According to CapGeek, Ottawa is $1.525m below the floor right now. Assuming Filatov cracks the roster, that puts Ottawa about $670k above the floor. Find another $1.4m in signings (Rundblad, or almost any other 2 players) and you’ve got the $2m space to move Neil and stay above the floor.
by B_T on Jul 5, 2011 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions
I really like this deal
It adds pressure to previous guys like Winchester and Regin and if it dosnt work out then send him to the minors. Konopka dosnt make that much money and isnt a kind of guy to be unwilling to clear waivers.
Quality depth signing - nothing more, nothing less.
I like this move. I feel like the repeated laments about the bottom six forward spots already being spoken for (see above, ad nauseum) overlooks the fact the fact that it’s a 23-man roster. There’s typically a defenceman and two forwards sitting out on any given night, and there’s a definite art to managing who’s in and out of line-up. Injuries, slumps, whatever – there are plenty of reasons why a Winchester or a Condra or a Foligno doesn’t suit up. Better to have an experienced pro cooling his heels in the press box instead of a young player who’d be better served getting quality minutes in Bingo. Plus, Konopka strikes me as an immediate upgrade on Winchester (similar skills, better intangibles), and I wouldn’t be surprised in he starts the season centering the fourth line.
Also – don’t underestimate ZK’s non-fighting abilities. His NHL stats may suggest that he’s a one-dimensional goon with a knack for winning draws, but that’s more a reflection of the role he’s been asked to fulfill than anything else. He’s been close to a point-a-game in the AHL on multiple occasions, which is more than you can say about most of the guys at the bottom end of the Sens’ depth-chart.
by Andy Dax on Jul 5, 2011 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
this deal makes me think a few things
1) yay! someone who can actually fight
2) good depth player, as andy just noted
3) murray must have liked what he saw in the development camp. someone is staying with the big club, maybe two
4) chris neil’s role is about to change. he can put up points, we’ve seen it before. the emphasis will be for him to concentrate on that aspect of his game
5) i don’t have a fifth thought, but it feels right to have this number of points
Neil is what he is
Neil is what he is, a tough guy with a bit of skill, good in the corners, good energy type of gguy… period. He will never be a point producer, and he has not been a fighter for a while now.
He can be an okay point producer, actually
Every now and then, he takes a beautiful shot.
Oh Captain, my Captain!
I don't hate the signing
Konopka will be a good guy to have for games against teams like the Leafs and Flyers. Maybe he is not a top six forward, but he will be a good depth guy. I picked ‘Sort Of" because really I don’t care that much one way or the other.
DEPTH
I don’t usually log in anymore, but I’m strongly-inclined to make a comment.
How deep was the Canucks blue line? And how many defensemen made it to the finals? I’m not insinuating that we’re making a run, but more depth is better than less depth, and it’s not alot of money. The contract is for 700k, what’s the league-minimum? Slightly lower, right? This is a good signing for the young guys, the dressing room, and many other reasons.
I'm cool with it
Depth dude, good on faceoffs, throws hands, former 67, cheapo contract. No issues over here.
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by Johnny_Spectacular on Jul 5, 2011 8:00 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Now we know Melnyk's committed to Senate Reform
He’s only pressured Murray into a getting a free agent for just one year and less than $1 million.
Here is why I think Konopka is a liability
Yeah sure he wins the faceoffs, but how is the rest of his game? Among players who played at least 40 games last year:
- The 2nd worst Corsi rating in the entire NHL.
- When Konopka was on the ice, the Islanders had only 1.66 Goals For/60 minutes, this is 2nd worst on the Islanders
- When Konopka was on the ice, the Islanders allowed 2.93 Goals Agaist/60 minutes, this is 6th worst on the Islanders
- When Konopka was on the ice, the Islanders totalled only 18.9 shots on goals/60
minutes, worst on the Islanders.
- When Konopka was on the ice, the Islanders allowed 30.9 shots on goals/60 minutes, third worst on the Islanders.
Here is Jesse Winchester by comparison:
- 2nd best Corsi rating on the Senators
- 1.65 goals for/60 minutes of Winchester being on the ice, 2nd worst
- 2.43 goals allowed/60 minutes of Winchester being on the ice, third best
- 27.8 shots on goal/60 minutes, 6th best on the Sens
- 23.9 shots allowed/60 minutes, best on the Sens
In summary:
- Winchester has the 2nd best Corsi rating on the Sens, Konopka has 2nd worst in the entire league.
- But players are on the ice for very few goals
- Konopka is on the ice for way more goals against
- Winchester creates more chances at least, with a higher number of shots on target
- Defensively it is a no comparison in terms of shots allowed, Winchester is far superior
An Ottawa Senators supporter in Toronto, Ontario. I am cool like that.
Hahaha... advanced hockey metrics
If I’m not mistaken, Corsi is like +/- for shots (at even strength).
There is so much luck involved when you’re talking about +/- for goals that this Corsi guy developed one for shots. The idea is that the better your Corsi, the better you are at generating scoring chances while also minimizing oppositional scoring chances.
I personally understand the value of the metric, but I’m just not at the point where I’m able to use it. Plus I don’t know where to find the stats.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Jul 6, 2011 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions
You can find them at www.behindthenet.ca for season totals
You can find individual game stats at Time on Ice
An Ottawa Senators supporter in Toronto, Ontario. I am cool like that.
His stats reflect the role he was given
A guy starts the majority of his shifts in the defensive zone and comes off after generating an offensive rush. He’s on the ice for goals against but on the bench while his team is getting their scoring chances.
What would you expect this guys stats to look like?
by anothersensfan on Jul 6, 2011 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Doesn't Jesse Winchester have the same role?
An Ottawa Senators supporter in Toronto, Ontario. I am cool like that.
Same position yes. Same role no
Lets look at those stats
Ozone starts % – J 49.0 Z 30.2
Ozone finishes % – J 52.9 Z 43.8
Ozone faceoffs – J 188 Z 180
Nzone faceoffs – J 205 Z 256
Dzone faceoffs – J 196 Z 417
Total faceoffs – J 589 Z 853
TOI – J 9.61 Z 8.38
Jessie is playing a balanced game in all zones.
Zenon is taking a lot more faceoffs, especially in the Dzone and playing fewer minutes. The only way this adds up is that most of the time he goes off as soon as his team transitions to offense.
by anothersensfan on Jul 6, 2011 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Fair point
That is a pretty reasonable explanation.
An Ottawa Senators supporter in Toronto, Ontario. I am cool like that.
Thanks
I’m curious to see what Zenon’s offensive stats will be like with more Ozone time and better line mates. He was a producer in Major Junior and the A. Not far off Foligno’s pace in fact.
by anothersensfan on Jul 6, 2011 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions
By this time next year, it won't matter
Both Winchester and Konopka will be gone.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHbj53fZx2Y
How's the PK gong to be?
Yesterday I was complaining that with so many of our tough guys being low minutes guys, that weren’t tough enough. How about a fourth line of Konopka, Carkner and Neil?
We just became one of the most penalized teams in the league. I don’t know if this is a wise move or not, as we will have enough trouble scoring enough goals without spending so much time in the sin bin. If we aren’t leading the league in PK percentage, this signing spells trouble.
If Konopka’s penalty minutes are for fighting, that’s fine as long as he doesn’t spend extra time for instigating.
All the same, we will be entertaining. And we won’t need other centers. He can take all the faceoffs and then punch someone in the face and come off.
Since when do we make lines out of a centre, a defenseman and a winger?
Not to detract from your argument about all the penalties that they could take collectively.
Oh Captain, my Captain!
Fair
And I realized after I posted it that you were talking PK so we’d likely have 2 forwards and 2 D. But that doesn’t make them a line :)
Hell, Paulrus could go crazy and bump ZSmith to the left wing on the PK. I’m pretty sure that would be the most likely combination ever to be penalized.
Oh Captain, my Captain!
Islanders
Off topic but are the Islanders going to make the cap floor, check out cap geek.
18 guys signed at 37.8 million, typical team is made up of 23 spots.
5 spots available with 4 RFA signings (2010 team members) left at around 4.5 million. That still leaves around 6 million to hit the cap floor at 48.3 million.
Who knows
Maybe they’ll swing something like acquiring a useless player to buy out, or a salary dump or something.
Or may they’ll just risk the penalties the league is considering.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Jul 6, 2011 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Honestly, I don't see why more teams aren't farming out their cap space
“What’s that? You’ve got some salary you want to dump? We’ll take it and a 1st round pick for our 3rd round pick”.
by B_T on Jul 6, 2011 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions
It's a good question
Although right now, the way the cap’s risen, there aren’t that many teams in cap trouble, are there?
And even those which are in cap trouble have such heinous contracts in place that you’d pretty much have to be crazy to take them on. Like Florida, for taking on Campbell’s contract.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Jul 6, 2011 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions
It's the teams like Florida I'm mostly thinking of
Not like Ottawa’s 1.6m under the floor situation.
by B_T on Jul 6, 2011 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Weasel move
I hate to suggest it but perhaps there’s a loophole they could use.
Assume they cheap out and fill up the last 5 spots with league min ($550k) guys, i.e. $2.75M, leaving $8M to fill.
Get everyone on the team to sign an addendum to their contracts that provides for a $350k bonus *(each) if they win the stanley cup.
I believe bonuses count against the cap, at least at the high end; so i’m guessing they should apply at the low end too (I’m sure someone who has or wants to read the actual CBA could correct me here!), letting them make the floor without actually signing more regular season salary.
If this works and teams actually do it, the over the cap teams like Washington and Buffalo will be in trouble since their GMs are assuming they can dump overpriced contracts on these underwater teams.
That said, I think Garth Snow and GMs of the other underwater/low budget teams are going to try to be competitive so a few moderated overpriced contracts may move. If the salary cap ever stagnates or goes down, I see some real value to teams with cap space in not taking on inflated contracts from other teams, especially in their division, to force those teams to use short rosters or fill out their rosters with low end talent.
This may work. There are also some free agents left over that the Islanders could sign to pump up their salary number if they don’t want to risk incurring the league’s wrath by trying accounting tricks.
Can't do it
The CBA does not allow renegotiations to contracts, and I’m pretty sure this would qualify as a renegotiation.
On the other hand, they could just sign their prospects to incentive-laced contracts that would pay them some crazy dollar amount if they manage to attain a series of pretty much unattainable benchmarks (50 goals, 100 points, Stanley Cup, whatever else).
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by Peter Raaymakers on Jul 6, 2011 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions
I am okay with this signing.
It’s cheap. It’s ONE YEAR. I am hoping it gives players like Z. Smith a chance to explore other dimensions to their games.
Maybe this means Carkner is out so that there have another spot opening on D? Maybe one of the third/fourth line guys is going to be traded?
Regardless it’s too early to rip this signing apart.
by Los Blancos Chicca on Jul 6, 2011 12:56 PM EDT reply actions
Still unsure....
Been a reader for a few months first post here goes:
Came in thinking it was a bad signing read all 194 comments still not sure whether this was a good thing
Pros:
-Fighter that will let other players do their job
-Could replace Carkner’s role and lets Cowen or Rundblad step in immediately
Pros I disagree with:
-Faceoffs the whole 57% vs 55% thing is ridiculous and Jason Spezza taking too many defensive zone faceoffs last I checked Spezza had a stellar 2nd half of the year taking on a very defensive role
-Depth: last I checked we have about 14 bottom six guys so this feels excessive
Cons: Kills chances of signing Shannon and likely many of the other young forwards of stepping in this year especially with the AnaCondra signing today
-Limits our raw talent and puts a number of guys in Bingo….maybe we will just have to suffer this year and let the reform be see true results in 2012-2013
Welcome to the site!
It’s definitely an interesting signing, given our apparent glut of bottom-six guys.
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