Senators re-sign Z. Smith for two more years, Greening for three
by Peter Raaymakers on May 19, 2011 5:00 PM EDT
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Ottawa Senators general manager Bryan Murray crossed two items off his to-do list for this off-season, as restricted free agents Zack Smith and Colin Greening singed contract extensions this afternoon. Both deals are one-way NHL contracts.
UPDATE: Renaud Levoie of RDS is reporting that Z. Smith's deal is worth $1.4M total ($700K cap hit), while Greening's is worth $2.45M total ($817K cap hit).
Z. Smith, 23, was drafted in the third round (79 overall) of the 2008 NHL Entry Draft, and has played 71 NHL games over the last three seasons, all with Ottawa. He's scored 12P (6G, 6A) and accumulated 134PIM in that span. He's also had significant success in the AHL since joining the organization, putting up 89P (38G, 51A) in 147 regular season GP, plus another 17P (6G, 11A) in 17GP during this year's B-Sens playoff run. With his one-way contract, Z. Smith will likely step into either of Ottawa's vacant third- or fourth-line centre roles for the 2011-12 season. His extension is a two-year deal.
Greening's deal is a three-year extension. In his first pro season this year, the 25-year-old St. John's native put up 13P (6G, 7A) in 24 NHL GP and 40P (15G, 25A) in 59 AHL GP, plus 3P (1G, 2A) in 17 playoff games. He was drafted in the seventh round (204 overall) in the 2005 NHL Entry Draft, but really improved his stock in the organization with four solid years at Cornell University in the ECAC. Next season will be his first as an NHLer, and despite spending time in Ottawa's top six this past year, it seems more likely he'll slot into either the third or fourth line next season.
Even with Z. Smith and Greening signed, Ottawa still has eight restricted free agents awaiting contract offers, including Bobby Butler, Erik Condra, Roman Wick, Cody Bass, Ryan Potulny, Kaspars Daugavins, Jason Bailey, and Geoff Kinrade.
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One way deals?
Although I think Z. Smith has shown he’s at least a 4th liner in the NHL (once he stops taking so many dumb penalties), I’m not sure I can say the same for Greening. Yes, he looked great during his time with the big club (and he’s got the speed/size most players only dream of), but it still seems premature for him to be getting a three-year, one-way deal. Of course, if it’s for a bargain price, maybe it’s a shrewd calculated risk by Murray.
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I'm also a little curious
The Zmith one-way deal seemed obvious to me (I had, after all, predicted such a development), but Greening’s still got lots to prove. He has all the making of an effective NHLer—speed, a heck of a shot, ample size—but we still don’t really know what he can do. And his playoff performance this season has been less than impressive.
With these two, the Senators have ten forwards under NHL-only contract for next season, leaving two spots (plus potentially a third, as an injury replacement) for free agents Ryan Shannon, Butler, Condra, Wick, Bass, Potulny, Daugavins, and signed two-way guys O’Brien, Petersson, Hamilton, Locke, and Cannone to compete for. That will be a lot of competition, and I don’t think it’s unreasonable to think that there’s a good chance two or three of those guys could outperform Greening in training camp.
An Ottawa Senators fan blogging at www.silversevensens.com
by Peter Raaymakers on May 19, 2011 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh yeah, I also forgot the top-six winger Murray has said he’d like to sign in free agency, plus the first-round pick Murray said he expects to play right away next season. Even more competition!
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by Peter Raaymakers on May 19, 2011 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Please no Jagr, please no Jagr!
An Ottawa Senators supporter in Toronto, Ontario. I am cool like that.
I'd be really surprised if Jagr was on our radar
Or if we were on his
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I was joking
But I would love to see him back in the NHL.
An Ottawa Senators supporter in Toronto, Ontario. I am cool like that.
I wouldn't
It’d be like watching Apollo fight Drago.
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Drago is a terrible name
Never catching on!
An Ottawa Senators supporter in Toronto, Ontario. I am cool like that.
This conversation is wasted on someone who hasn't seen Rocky IV
by Mark Parisi on May 19, 2011 10:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Anytime I hear Living In America I think of poor Apollo.
by modsuperstar on May 19, 2011 10:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I’ve been with the best, and I’ve beat the best. I’ve retired more men than social security!
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Drago should not even fight this man, because he is a... HAS BEEN!
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by Mark Parisi on May 20, 2011 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions
Re: Greening's playoffs
From what I’ve read, Greening has actually been playing really well in the playoffs, he’s just snake-bitten. I’ve heard he’s still hitting well, playing strong defensively, but just not showing up on the scoresheet. I haven’t watched enough to know, but it’s something to think about.
As for those competing for spots — you forgot Da Costa. Or were you including him in your ten forwards? (I only counted 9 forwards, btw, as Da Costa is two-way)
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Oh, well that's it, then
I counted Da Costa as a one-way because I’d forgotten he was on a two-way deal.
An Ottawa Senators fan blogging at www.silversevensens.com
by Peter Raaymakers on May 19, 2011 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Silfverberg could be another name in the mix, although I would think he might need some AHL seasoning to adapt to the North American game.
Of course there could be trades and there certainly will be injuries, so it is good to have depth. Nonetheless, Peter is right that the Sens are carrying a lot of one-way contracts for a rebuilding team.
On the plus side, if Greening pans out then the second and especially the third years of his contract might turn out to be a great deal for the Sens.
My sense is that Murray views this as the next step in their development
Greening has the tools, like you mentioned, and he showed talent in spurts. It’s time to see if he can do it all the time. If he never develops into more than a third liner, no big deal — that’s what he’s getting paid like anyway.
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What makes you think
he can be a good third liner over the next 3 years?
He had a good year in the AHL, and a good month in the NHL.
He could revert or disappoint.
Foligno looked like he was trending up at the end of 2008-2009.
Regin looked like he was trending up in the 2010 playoffs.
If Da Costa, O’brien, Wick, Daugavins, Condra, Cannone, Hamilton, or Potulny, or any one else, outplays just one of Greening of Smith during camp, and then doesn’t make the team,
this will be a mistake, especially for a rebuilding team.
Not a huge mistake, especially not financially. But the best players should play, and they all should have equal footing in the competition for free slots.
by DontfeedtheBelak on May 20, 2011 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Well, uh, I didn't exactly say I think he can be a good third liner anywhere in there
But I do think he can be.
You’re right that he could revert or disappoint. We’ve definitely seen that recently. But I think there are a few things to consider:
- There is an equal chance that he will succeed, given the body of evidence we saw this year
- There is an equal chance that any of those players you name will revert or disappoint as well.
- Playing Greening over someone who performs better at training camp isn’t necessarily a “mistake”. because a good training camp isn’t always a good indicator of how well a player will perform. Foligno certainly didn’t live up to his blistering goal-a-game pace of this year’s training camp.
I agree that the best players should play, and I think the Greening and Z. Smith deals indicate who the staff feels those best players are. This staff has a pretty good track record of evaluating talent so far, so I’m inclined to trust their judgment, you know?
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by Mark Parisi on May 20, 2011 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions
This staff has a pretty good track record of evaluating talent so far
Pre GM Murray: ~annual 100 point teams, and had 11 straight playoff appearances,
with 6 playoff series wins in the previous four trips.
Post GM Murray: two playoff appearances in four years, zero playoff victories.
Where is this good track record at evaluating talent? Kovalev, Gonchar?
The draft picks and (especially!) the college UFA prospects look good, but no guarantees they pan out.
Your reasoning above (equal chance for success, other players revert, good camps don’t translate) do not exclude two-way contracts for all the young talent, and let the best come up. And perform, since they could always be sent down to an AHL salary.
Brian Murray developed the “Brian Lee” Method.
In Nashville, they provided the alternative “Marcel Goc” method, which seems to work for them.
by DontfeedtheBelak on May 20, 2011 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm not really sure why you'd use overall team success as an indicator of evaluating talent
Talented teams fail all the time. The Capitals, the Red Wings, the Sharks, all of those Pre-Murray Senators teams, etc.
Erik Karlsson was selected to the All Star game in just his second year. The last Senators drafted player to play in the All Star game? Jason Spezza. The team went 10 years without developing an All Star on their own.
In three drafts, Murray has found five NHL players so far, not including Bustler and Da Costa. That number could rise as high as ten next year, assuming Cowen, Rundblad, Silverberg, Petersson, and our first rounder this year meet team expectations.
All told, that’s 12 NHL-caliber players in four years, and that doesn’t include AHL scoring leaders like Locke, Keller, and Potulny, or the impressive showing of Craig Anderson.
It took 7 drafts to get 12 players who logged some NHL ice time before Murray came on board. That’s almost twice as long.
There’s no “guarantee” that any player pans out — Cheechoo was a former Rocket Richard winner. It sounds like what you want is every player on a two-way contract, which is simply unrealistic.
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I am not sure
how you are saying Murray has been a good evaluator of talent.
Gonchar. Kovalev.
Meszaros for Kuba and a first.
Resigning Kuba for nearly what Meszaros wanted.
A first and Mccammond for Campoli and Comrie.
Vermette for Leclaire and Lehner. Long term may be a wash because of Lehner, but no doubt his value in Leclaire was misguided.
Heatley for Cheechoo, Michalek and a 2nd. Extenuating circumstances, but as GM, he had the option of forcing a 40 goal scorer to stay. He chose, and chose wrong.
A one way deal for Brian Lee.
There’s no "guarantee" that any player pans out
You should remember that. So should Murray, before handing out one way contracts freely.
Erik Karlsson was selected to the All Star game
That was a questionable pick, over Ryan Suter and many others. Karlsson is nice, gifted, but this is evidence that he is a better NHL player than Meszaros, Volchenkov, Vermette?
Just because drafting was horrid in the Muckler era doesn’t mean Murray is golden. Compare Murray to Marshall Johnstone.
by DontfeedtheBelak on May 20, 2011 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Ryan Suter was drafted in 2003, Erik Karlsson was drafted in 2008
Maybe you mean Ryan Ellis, but even he was drafted in 2009.
An Ottawa Senators supporter in Toronto, Ontario. I am cool like that.
For the All Star Game
28 pts in 48 games, -17
22 pts in 39 games, +17
One plays on a team with Shea Weber,
one needed a rep since every one else was horrid, and Spezza was hurt.
You shouldn’t read too much into an All Star Game selecton.
by DontfeedtheBelak on May 20, 2011 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions
I won't dispute that Murray's free agent moves and trades have largely been shit
In fact, they’re the main reason for the team’s recent struggles, in my opinion. It’s even more frustrating, because he identified the needs correctly, but utterly struck out on filling them.
Ignoring my points to focus on where Murray has failed in free agency and trading not only obfuscates the debate, but it’s completely irrelevant – Greening and Z. Smith are not free agents, they are internally developed talent, and Murray and staff do have a good track record in that area, as shown by the fact that they matched the success rate of past GMs and their staffs in half the time.
You should remember that. So should Murray, before handing out one way contracts freely.
The idea that contracts were “handed out” is absurd. This wasn’t an act of charity.
That was a questionable pick, over Ryan Suter and many others. Karlsson is nice, gifted, but this is evidence that he is a better NHL player than Meszaros, Volchenkov, Vermette?
But none of that is relevant. Your opinion of Karlsson’s selection to the All Star game does not refute the factual statement that he is the first drafted Senator in 10 years to be selected.
Just because drafting was horrid in the Muckler era doesn’t mean Murray is golden.
No one said anywhere that Murray is golden. Let’s keep the discussion to what has been said, rather than what we want to hear.
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Fine
This staff has a pretty good track record of evaluating talent so far, so I’m inclined to trust their judgment, you know?
I worry what you think is ‘a good track record’ of ‘evaluating talent’.
All his questionable trades, FA pickups, and COACHING decisions fall under this umbrella of ‘evaluating talent’ and are solid evidence for a BAD TRACK RECORD. The drafting is the only thing he has done well.
Even then, if Marcel Goc signs a two way contract after four years as an NHL checking center on a top flight team in SJ,
how does Z. Smith and Greening get one way contracts after ~100 combined NHL games?
It is also irrelevant to use NHL all star game picks as evidence of talent and quality. Brad Marsh was an NHL all star.
by DontfeedtheBelak on May 20, 2011 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree
I hope you’re wrong, though. Mistakes are going to set back Senate Reform pretty harshly.
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Don't get me wrong
I was impressed with Greening, Condra and Butler,
and I am also impressed with Smith, Potulny, Daugavins, and Keller in the AHL playoffs.
But one way contracts to certain guys, who haven’t shown yet they can play at the NHL yet for a full year, is premature. We could have a set of Brian Lees filling out our roster.
Murray is a great drafter. He has set up the rebuild well with the young guys in the system. I especially like the ‘free draft picks’ in guys like Butler, Cannone, Hamilton, and Da Costa.
But there is a reason why he isn’t exactly ’GM of the year".
I hope Greening and Butler and Condra combine for 50-60 goals.
by DontfeedtheBelak on May 20, 2011 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Lee grew into one of our best defenders last year
But I know what you mean
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I liked Lee in March
but the truth is, he didn’t deserve a two year, one way contract extension last year.
Same with Greening and Z. Smith now.
by DontfeedtheBelak on May 20, 2011 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, I think that deserve is a subjective term
Though in Lee’s case, I’d agree. I don’t view his contract as a reward, but a “shit or get off the pot” situation. The time had come for the team to find out what they had in Lee, so they gave him an affordable contract they could bear to part with if they decided to cut bait. They did cut bait, and no one wanted him. At that point, he started to play better, so the whole situation worked out all right.
I think we’re seeing the same thing here. The team has to find out what it has in Z. Smith and Colin Greening, and made the investment to do so. It’s not like they’re on the hook for Kovalev money if either guy busts.
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Murray
has also had the luxury (except the Brian Lee pick) of finishing out of the playoffs (based on the teams he mis-built) more, so gets better picks because of it.
I like what he is doing with the rebuild, and the AHL and junior and european and college prospects are looking great, and the anderson move in net.
But he is far from a great judge of talent, based on his previous actions.
by DontfeedtheBelak on May 20, 2011 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm confused by this talk of "luxury"...
Brian Lee was picked three years before Murray’s first draft. I don’t see the better picks you’re talking about being so relevant, since the Sens only missed the playoffs once. (Twice, but the 2011 draft hasn’t happened yet).
The earliest they’ve picked in recent years was 9th in 2009 when they chose Cowen. The Sens have not had perennial early picks like the Islanders or the Lightning. I think Murray’s biggest mistakes have been the big contracts to the likes of Kovalev, Gonchar, and Kuba.
I don’t have a problem with Smith or Greening getting the relatively cheap one-way deals. I think the choice of a free agent forward that Murray has spoken of is much more of an indicator than either of these contracts.
Other than Shannon, the only guy who may possible get a 1-way is Butler. But the way they are playing, I’m starting to warm to the idea of letting Shannon walk. I’m also warming to the idea of trading Neil. Putulny needs another look, Daugavins, and Condra. The draft pick won’t be playing unless it ends up being Landeskog or cortourier. If I’m Murray, I try to do a similar 3-year deal with Butler to prolong the period before he goes UFA if it works the same. But I don’t know if I would want to sign Shannon or just leave that spot open for rotating rookies.
I like Shannon, but I don't see where we have room for him
If we lose him, that sucks, but it’s the nature of the beast.
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im a big shannon fan
i would hate to see him go.. especially for no particular reason other than “younger” guys await… i honestly see very few negatives to his game — people criticize him for his size but he does incredibly well for a small guy. besides, he’s our only really small guy. i would honestly keep him if not only for his pk and forechecking (yes, forechecking). he’s so quick and is able to jump from man to man and put pressure on them to make a play. oh wait, he can play pp too.. and uhh.. just about anywhere! i think they’ll do the right thing and shannon will stay. butler and shannon will get the 1 ways and then condra et al will get 2 ways and will likely rotate throughout. i’d think winchester is on thin ice.. z smith is a younger, more talented winchester but just slightly worse at faceoffs. ah well i’m sure we’ll find out in due time!
I'm curious where he fits, though
He did well on the second line last year, but I don’t think there will be room for him this year. Z. Smith and Greening now take up 2 spots in our bottom 6. Neil is a third, possibly Regin, possibly Da Costa, and we still have a draft pick (supposedly) ready to play immediately, AND a top 6 guy we’re supposedly adding in free agency. AND we might add another top college prospect if history shows anything. That’s already too many bodies.
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Sadly, we can’t be 100% certain about Alfredsson’s status for next fall. If he can I am sure he will play next season, but it doesn’t look certain that he will necessarily play a full schedule. With Spezza missing some games and Michalek in and out of the lineup, it would be nice to have a guy who can step in and play on the top two lines. Shannon can do that and do it relatively cheaply, so I would still favour keeping him around if he is willing to be essentially a back-up.
That's a good point
If that’s a role he’s willing to accept, I’d certainly be fine with keeping him. I just don’t want to do it at the expense of developing a long-term player for the team.
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by Mark Parisi on May 20, 2011 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions
I love the terms
700k for Smith?
Even 817k for Greening is nothing to get fussy about.
Greening will either make the team and be excellent value for year 2/3 of his contract, or he won’t and Eugene will lose 800k. Won’t hurt our cap situation at all.
Well done Murray.
An Ottawa Senators supporter in Toronto, Ontario. I am cool like that.
True
If they continue getting better.
They may turn into Peter Regin, too. In which case a wasted NHL salary and roster spot, when you have guys (O’Brien, Potulny, Wick, Daugavins) who have toiled in other leagues for some time, and others (Da Costa, Cannone, Hamilton, Hoffman, Cowick) who still need seasoning but still have the potential to outplay Smith and Greening in camp.
I like Greening and Smith. But they shouldn’t be given one way tickets to Kanata, with the group of forwards we have with similar development/potential, who have also paid their dues in the AHL.
by DontfeedtheBelak on May 20, 2011 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions
What's the rule?
I hope BM knows what he is doing here. I think that the best way to do things would be to allow the coach to decide who plays… not the contracts. Doing things this way makes training camp a sham, as it makes no difference how anyone plays… it’s just the contracts that make the decisions.
With so many possibilities, there is no way of telling who will show up at training camp and who will come in thinking he’s entitled to a spot because of last year or whatever. Signing guys to one ways based on small sample sizes of performance just guarantees that the only thing training camp decides is who plays for the B Sens.
These kinds of mistakes add up and then result in no roster spots available for a surging player… until injuries start happening. And the team is not free to bring up players who play in the CHL or the QMJHL.
By the way what is that rule about bringing up players from the CHL… European players are different than Canadian players???
And please please do not bring the Jagr circus to town.
What you are saying has some truth to it, but remember that Greening’s contract doesn’t come with any guarantee of where he will slot in the lineup. He and ZSmith still have to show up and perform in training camp because with their inexpensive deals they could easily find themselves making up 2/3 of the fourth line or sitting in the press box waiting for someone to get injured or go into a slump.
Agreed, let Jagr continue his heroics in the KHL. He seems to like it there. Good for him.
The Brian Lee Hypothesis
to give them guaranteed one way deals, for 2 or 3 years.
Two way deals should have been signed all around,
and let the best of Greening, Smith, Condra, O’brien, Wick, Daugavins, Potulny, Butler, make the team.
Now, it looks assured Greening and Smith will make the team, regardless of merit in September(called the Brian Lee Rule), and two less slots for the others to fight for.
The only guy who should have got a guaranteed one way with term is the one guy who has shown himself to be an NHL player, Shannon.
If Z. Smith and Greening get one way with 2 to 3 years term, does Butler, Condra and Potulny get the same? They have done at least as much at the NHL level.
by DontfeedtheBelak on May 20, 2011 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Greening is too old to receive a two-way deal
An Ottawa Senators supporter in Toronto, Ontario. I am cool like that.
I am pretty sure
David Hale disagrees.
Any one can sign a two way deal, regardless of age.
Here in Nashville, they signed Marcel Goc, former first round pick, with the big club for four full seasons as a checking center, a decent NHL level checking center,
to a two way contract. He had to play his tail off to make the team, and when convinced of his status as an NHL player (he has had even better years since), they extended him on a one way contract.
That is how you do it. You don’t guarantee NHL roster spots to guys Greening and Smith.
Let them fight for a spot this year, have a good year, then one way.
And why is Smith getting less than Greening anyway? I understand the term (so that they both maintain RFA status at the end of the contract), but Smith is further in his development, had more NHL experience, and is arguably the better AHL player too.
by DontfeedtheBelak on May 20, 2011 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions
Hmm, true
Well that’s what I get for taking twitter at its word.
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I think there's a bit of truth to it
I can’t quite recall but I think there’s a rule that enforces 1 way deals for prospects over a certain age… maybe to do with RFA qualifying offers? I’ll post back if I remember later.
I'm not surprised Greening is earning more than Smith
Greening has a higher upside, and he’s older and I’m pretty sure he’s more mature. I could see Greening step into second-line minutes a lot more readily than Smith.
An Ottawa Senators fan blogging at www.silversevensens.com
by Peter Raaymakers on May 20, 2011 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Hey everyone!!
I am happy about the Zack Smith signing. I don’t want to say I am unhappy with the Greening signing because if he stays the same or becomes better it’s a good deal and not expensive. I was surprised like most of the fact that Murray signed him to a one-way right away. Maybe there has been a change in plans? Who knows. Hopefully Greening will keep it up!
by Los Blancos Chicca on May 20, 2011 8:30 AM EDT reply actions
I think he might trade one of the forwards
With so many forwards on one way contracts, I think he might use Chris Neil, Nick Foligno or Peter Regin on draft day to pick up extra picks or to move up in the draft.
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by Adnan on May 20, 2011 8:51 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I could easily see that happening
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by Mark Parisi on May 20, 2011 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions
What could you possibly get
for Regin or Foligno?
I rather have them (well, at least Foligno) than the 4th round pick (at best) they are likely to net.
On the other hand, Foligno + our #1 + a late pick for Landeskog = great deal
by DontfeedtheBelak on May 20, 2011 9:51 AM EDT reply actions
I think using one of them in a package with a pick to move up is the most likely, but if either were traded straight-up for draft picks, it wouldn’t be for a fourth rounder.
An Ottawa Senators fan blogging at www.silversevensens.com
by Peter Raaymakers on May 20, 2011 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions
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