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What does David Petrasek have to do with Ottawa, anyway?

Baffling. Undeniably so. Rationalize this any way you want this is just strange. He could be a player but, Lord….I’m waiting for the the other shoe to drop.

This quote sums up the reaction of most Senators fans to the 2010 draft day trade that saw David Rundblad join the organization. And it was undeniably baffling -- the team had drafted Erik Karlsson, Patrick Wiercioch, and Jared Cowen in the early rounds for the past two years. Meanwhile, fans were still reeling from the dramatic fallout due to Dany Heatley's trade demands.

Offense, not defense, was needed. Rundblad represented a luxury pick at a position where the team already had depth. There were legitimate questions about just where he fit in the team's plans.

Then Rundblad went out and put up 50 points (11G, 39A) in 55 games for his Swedish team, Skellefteå AIK of the Elitserien. That number was the second-most for a defenseman in the Elitserien ever, and earned him the Salming Trophy -- the Elitserien's equivalent of the Norris Trophy. Rundblad had instantly become Ottawa's best prospect.

It is largely on the strength of that season (his previous best, 13 points, had been achieved just the year before) that Sens fans are now dismayed at his early departure. But what did that season really tell us about Rundblad's potential? Was it an indication of an emerging superstar or a portent of future filled with unrealized expectations?

Just who set the record for points by a defenseman in the Elitserien, anyway?

Star-divide

For the purposes of this article, I will be throwing out any argument that Rundblad's outstanding 2010-11 season was statistically anomalous. This is primarily because I believe that players are more than their statistics -- if everyone performed like their statistics, then there would never be any breakout players or busts -- yet every year sees plenty of exactly that. There's an equal chance that Rundblad's season was either a breakout or anomalous, so it's a waste of energy to debate it. Time will answer the question for us.

With that out of the way, the answer to the question is, of course, David Petrasek.

Haven't heard of him? Neither had I. Petrasek set the record the year before Rundblad sniffed it, in the 2009-10 season for badass team HV71. His 53 points (15G, 38A) in 52 games are outstanding for a defenseman in any league (except maybe the QMJHL) and surely distinguish him as a top prospect you'll be hearing about soon, right?

Wrong.

Petrasek was a 1998 selection by the Detroit Red Wings -- a team with a well-documented Swedish connection. They took him in the 8th round, 226th overall. He never played in North America. In fact, his record-setting season may not have even been good enough to keep HV71's interest: he played the 2010-11 season for the Minsk Dynamo of the KHL. His record wasn't even good enough to earn him the Salming Trophy. That went to Magnus Johansson, of the far less cool Linköpings HC.

The Salming Trophy winners

This trophy, named after Börje Salming (and if you don't know who that is, take the time to click that link. Even though he was a dirty Maple Leaf, he was a mega-badass) is relatively new in the Elitserien, first being awarded during the 2007-08 season. That means there have only been three other players, besides Rundblad, who have received it. Let's compare:

2007-08: Mikko Luoma

Louma was a 6th round selection (181st overall) of the Edmonton Oilers in 2002. His Salming Trophy came for a 35-point (10G, 25A) season with the awesome HV71. He played in 49 games that season. Obviously, he was playing in the Elitserien five years after he was drafted, and that's not an encouraging sign.

In fact, he lasted just one year in the Oilers' system, playing 65 games for the AHL's Toronto Roadrunners in 2003-04. In those games, he manged just 26 points -- four goals and 22 assists. He also appeared in three games for Edmonton, recording an assist. After that, he returned to the Elitserien, where he has remained.

2008-09: Marcus Ragnarsson

Rangarsson may go by the more awesome name "Magnus" in Sweden. Anyway, he was a 5th round selection (99th overall) for the San Jose Sharks in 1992. Rangarsson played in the NHL for 10 years, and was a Sharks representative at the 2001 All Star Game. His highest point total, 39 (8G, 31A) came in his first year with the Sharks. He returned to Sweden during the lockout (BETTMAN SUCKS) and stayed there.

During his Salming-winning season, he scored 37 points (12G, 25A) in 49 games for the silly Djurgårdens IF. He was forced to retire due to injury a few years later.

2009-10: Magnus Johansson

Johansson was undrafted. However, he did sign a one-year contract with the Chicago Blackhawks in 2007. His four assists in 18 games got him traded to the Florida Panthers for a draft pick, though which one is not readily apparent. In Florida, he notched 10 assists in 27 games. His contract up, he signed with Atlant Moscow of the KHL.

Suffice it to say, that's not a very impressive track record of NHL success. Rangarsson is the only player who had an NHL career that lasted longer than one year.

Other Comparables

Rundblad's 50 points were the third-most in the Elitserien last year. On a whim, I decided to check on his competition: How many other top Elitserien scorers had been drafted by NHL teams?

Joakim Lindström - 2nd round, 41st overall by Columbus in 2002. Never caught on, traded to Anaheim, waived and claimed by Chicago (but re-claimed by Anaheim instead, so Chicago never got him) then traded to Phoenix, then headed to the KHL. Signed a one-year deal with Colorado this season, but was waived by the team in November. Currently playing for Skellefteå AIK.

Mikko Lehtonen - 3rd round, 83rd overall by Boston in 2005. Played two years for Providence, Boston's AHL affiliate, and then returned to Sweden. His rights were traded to Minnesota, but he's currently playing in the KHL.

Martin Thörnberg - Undrafted.

Byron Ritchie - 7th round, 165th overall by Hartford(!) in 1995. Bounced all over the place, and currently playing in a Swiss league. Harbors a strong dislike for francophones.

Niklas Andersson - 4th round, 68th overall by Quebec in 1989. He played for a lot of NHL teams, but only one (the Islanders) kept him for more than one year, and he spent most of his time in that organization playing for their IHL (you read that right) team.

Linus Videlll - 7th round, 204th overall by Colorado in 2003. Has never played for any North American team.

Per-Åge Skrøder - Undrafted.

Pär Arlbrandt - Undrafted.

Jaroslav Hlinka - Undrafted, but played one year for Colorado in 2007. Currently playing for nerd squad Linköpings HC.

Conclusions

The pedigree of Salming Trophy winners and Elitserien scoring leaders is questionable at best. Only one player of the thirteen examined in either category has had a meaningful NHL career. That certainly takes some of the shine off of Rundblad's accomplishments.

Does this mean that Runblad is destined to be a bust? Of course not. Of the players we have looked at, he easily has the highest draft grade. Two teams were willing to use a first round selection on him and Phoenix was willing to give up their own first round player for him. That's a pretty strong endorsement of his potential.

But for those thinking that Rundblad's breakout Elitserien season was an indication of a surefire top offensive defenseman, think again. It seems clear that success in the Elitserien is by no means a quality predictor of success in the NHL. And those who feel that Rundblad was an overpayment for another prospect like Kyle Turris need to accept the reality that objectively, Rundblad is not quite the sure thing the hype of his great 2010-11 season made him out to be.

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Thanks for bringing more perspective on Rundblad's hype.

I had fallen into the hype myself. It’s easy to blow things out of proportion when you are excited about a rebuild. I believe he will be a great defenseman in the future, but each day that has passed so far I am feeling better about the trade.

My only ish is that I feel the 2nd rounder + Rundblad was too much, Rundblad on his own should have sufficed. But maybe there were other teams willing to offer that as well?

by Los Blancos Chicca on Dec 19, 2011 10:17 AM EST reply actions  

Yes...

I think we definitely over-hype our prospects in a rebuild mode.

We also tend to over-hype draft picks a bit. Granted they are very important, but you can get 2nd round draft picks at the deadline for guys like Campoli… Just saying.

Thanks for the research Mark. It does bring some refreshing context to the knee-jerk Murray bashing that goes on around here. I haven’t been a big fan of most of Murray’s trades (drafting is another thing), but I think this one is a good gamble.

by Oman on Dec 19, 2011 11:03 AM EST up reply actions  

Hard to know sometimes if it’s “over paying” or the actual market price.

The price usually boils down to supply and demand.

I’m sure there were a few other teams driving the price up on Turris, and good top 6 centers are pretty hard to come by. They’re usually picked up with very high draft picks, or risky trades on unproven high end prospects.

If they’re proven 1st line centres, they’re rarely ever traded. 2nd line centres a bit more often, but still pretty rare.

by Oman on Dec 19, 2011 12:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Can’t wait to see a flood of Linkpoings HC fans come in here and complain about you calling their team a nerd squad.

I think it’s difficult to compare Rundblad to these other players, because what Rundblad did was particularly amazing because of his age. To do this when you’re playing the SEL as a 20-year-old and bound for the NHL is a pretty unique feat, something Rundblad managed to do.

Co-manager, Silver Seven

by DarrenM on Dec 19, 2011 10:19 AM EST reply actions  

I agree that Rundblad's age seperates him from the pack somewhat

But thanks Mark for the added context on SEL and for the reminder about fan confusion over the decision to trade for Rundblad in the first place. I’m still not sure what I think about this trade though. Sens Town had an interesting interview with a Phoenix reporter about Turris, and her take on his upside is worth a read.

http://www.senstown.com/2011/12/conversation-with-arizona-republics.html

by Amelia L on Dec 19, 2011 10:25 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, and I tried to stay away from comparing Rundblad to those players for exactly that reason

All of them were significantly more experienced than he was last season. I just found it particularly interesting that it didn’t take world-breaking talent to excel in the SEL, yet that’s the assumption we all made about Rundblad after last year.

Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs

by Mark Parisi on Dec 19, 2011 10:34 AM EST up reply actions  

Not quite the assumption

I think we all said it takes extremely rare talent to dominate in the SEL as a 19-year-old, which is what Rundblad did.

It still might be giving him too much credit since, as you’ve pointed out, many other players have dominated at that level and haven’t been able to translate that success into NHL success, but Rundblad was a different example, I’d say.

by Peter Raaymakers on Dec 19, 2011 11:49 AM EST up reply actions  

Well, the way I see it

It seems clear that it doesn’t take NHL-level talent to dominate the SEL, but it does take talent. The fact that Rundblad already displayed that level of talent at such a young age is exactly why he’s such a coveted prospect — but it doesn’t guarantee that he’ll translate to NHL success. I feel like that’s the leap we’re all making with him.

Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs

by Mark Parisi on Dec 19, 2011 11:55 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah Rundblad wasn’t just the best defenceman in the Elitserien for 1 year. His 1 year was one of the greatest seasons ever by a defenceman in that league.

It’s important to put that in context.

Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan

by Adnan on Dec 19, 2011 10:43 AM EST up reply actions  

Yes

And the context is that the greatest season ever by a defenseman in that league was accomplished by someone who wasn’t able to make the NHL under the tutelage of the most Swedish-friendly team.

Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs

by Mark Parisi on Dec 19, 2011 10:46 AM EST up reply actions  

When was he on the Red Wings?

by Wham_City on Dec 19, 2011 10:48 AM EST up reply actions  

This is not a very good argument.

How many 20-year-olds have been third overall in SEL scoring? And to do it as a defencemen?

There’s a reason that’s a short list. It’s very difficult to do. If any player in this deal should be put under the microscope for questionable competition it’s Turris’s outlier season in the BCHL.

by Wham_City on Dec 19, 2011 10:29 AM EST reply actions  

Turris deserves his own article for sure

I just haven’t had time to write one yet. :)

Still, I’m comfortable with my argument here. Rundblad’s age is relevant, but not really the crux of the discussion here. As I mentioned above, I was primarily looking at whether excelling in the SEL was indicative of high-end NHL talent. That doesn’t seem to be the case, so it’s a mistake for us to assume that’s what Rundblad is based on his excelling in the SEL.

Oh, and I specifically mentioned that I refused to consider Rundblad’s season an “outlier.” I’m not trying to diminish his accomplishment as anomalous. I’m merely speculating at the comparable NHL skill level required to achieve it.

Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs

by Mark Parisi on Dec 19, 2011 10:40 AM EST up reply actions  

Agreed

Yeah exactly. Rundblad has dominated the 2nd or 3rd best league in the world.

Turris’ best season was at a level even below the CHL.

Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan

by Adnan on Dec 19, 2011 10:41 AM EST up reply actions  

But this article isn't about comparing Turris and Rundblad

It’s merely examining whether we’re overhyping him based on his accomplishment in the SEL.

Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs

by Mark Parisi on Dec 19, 2011 10:44 AM EST up reply actions  

Without controlling for age it’s a specious argument. Here are a few Swedish d-man’s statlines at 20yo:

Lidstrom 38 4 19 23
Kronwall 48 5 7 12
Enstrom 49 4 10 14

And a few forwards…

Forsberg 39 18 26 44
Alfredsson 39 20 10 30
Zetterberg 47 15 31 46

Now I"m not about to say Rundblad will have as successful a career as any of these players. But by any measure what he did at 20 in the SEL is rare, his top prospect status was well earned.

Some will say the best return we could hope for Rundblad and our 2012 2nd was Kyle Turris. I just think that’s bullshit.

by Wham_City on Dec 19, 2011 11:21 AM EST up reply actions  

But I'm not arguing that his top prospect status is not well-earned

I’m simply pointing out that Sens fans may be overhyping him based on the demonstrated talent level required to achieve what he did.

His prospect status is well-earned because he matched that talent level at such a young age, but it clearly doesn’t prove that he is, or will ever be, an NHL-level talent.

Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs

by Mark Parisi on Dec 19, 2011 11:32 AM EST up reply actions  

But if his "top prospect" status is earned, why is he "hyped"?

Nobody was annointing him as Lidstrom yet. But the reality is that he had a pretty much unparalleled season in the SEL last year for someone his age.

And this year, the player he looked a lot like is … Karlsson in his rookie year, minus the chance to go build confidence in the AHL for a bit (so far). Some flashes of brilliance, a lot of mistakes, trouble with the speed and physicality.

The “evidence” for Rundblad’s potential/ceiling is much more recent than Turris’s, which is what I think has a lot of people worried.

Whether we were “hyping” Rundblad — time will tell. But it’s not like Ottawa fans were way out ahead of Sens’ team management (at least prior to the season) or a lot of hockey intelligentsia who were calling Rundblad (not Lehner or Cowen) the centrepiece of a drastically-improved Sens prospect pool.

Maybe Sens management saw something they really didn’t like in the first 25 games (or knew Rundblad would not go to the AHL?), but if not, sending him off for that return is worrying.

by sensory_experience on Dec 19, 2011 11:41 AM EST up reply actions  

He's hyped because some fans are saying that he'd eclipse Karlsson

Or that he was a sure thing as a top-four defenseman.

Those are a pretty big leap from “top prospect.”

Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs

by Mark Parisi on Dec 19, 2011 11:45 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm not saying he's a sure thing.

No prospect is. I just said the evidence for his topprospectitude came more recently. :)

by sensory_experience on Dec 19, 2011 11:48 AM EST up reply actions  

Right

And this article isn’t aimed at anyone in particular—more at the sense I get among Sens fans that Rundblad was more of a sure thing than Turris was, and that because of that they’re upset we “gave up” on him.

Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs

by Mark Parisi on Dec 19, 2011 11:57 AM EST up reply actions  

Absolutely

There’s a huge rift between “top prospect” to “top player.”

Jim O’Brien was one of Ottawa’s top prospects, once upon a time.

by Peter Raaymakers on Dec 19, 2011 11:55 AM EST up reply actions  

Not really...just drafted quite high

He never did anything of note in the W and has been treadig water since

by OD99 on Dec 19, 2011 11:03 PM EST up reply actions  

I don’t think he has looked like Karlsson in his rookie year, though. Karlsson was a much better skater and had a much better shot than Rundblad during his rookie NHL season.

I don’t think Rundblad is as much of a sure-thing as Karlsson was. Yes, they’re both Swedish offensive d-men with a lot of defensive lapses, but they have quite different games.

Co-manager, Silver Seven

by DarrenM on Dec 19, 2011 11:45 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't remember Karlsson being seen as a "sure thing".

Indeed, I remember very similar question marks about him, plus the ones about size.

I’m also not convinced Karlsson was a better skater in year one. I think we’re backwards-casting from hoe he is now. He did have some great rushes that first year, but that’s actually been one of Rundblad’s strengths (unlike, I agree, his shot).

by sensory_experience on Dec 19, 2011 11:49 AM EST up reply actions  

I absolutely remember Karlsson being a better skater in year one

Aside from being nicknamed ‘King Karlsson’, he was nicknamed ‘the gazelle’ as a rookie.

by LeTigre on Dec 19, 2011 5:01 PM EST up reply actions  

A similar ridiculous argument would go. X player dominating the AHL at 20 is meaningless because Denis Hamel has never amounted to anything in the NHL.

by Wham_City on Dec 19, 2011 12:04 PM EST up reply actions  

No doubt

It’s a good thing I’m not making that argument.

Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs

by Mark Parisi on Dec 19, 2011 12:05 PM EST up reply actions  

More or less, classic red herring to me.

Hey look at this 34 year old David Petrasek who couldn’t get a sniff in the NHL, certainly “takes the shines off” Rundblad dominating the SEL at 20.

Denis Hamel scoring 56 goals at 30 in the AHL tells me exactly nothing about a 20 year old doing the same, and what his NHL future portends.

by Wham_City on Dec 19, 2011 12:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, you're seeing what you want to see in that case

I’m not speculating on Rundblad’s future success at the NHL level, I’m merely pointing out that it’s clear that it doesn’t take NHL-level talent to dominate the SEL.

Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs

by Mark Parisi on Dec 19, 2011 1:44 PM EST up reply actions  

I think his argument is a fair one

I think it does take NHL-level talent to dominate the Elitserien at unprecedented levels at age 20.

Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan

by Adnan on Dec 19, 2011 1:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Your opinion is contradicted by the clear fact that the Elitserien is NOT dominated by NHL-level talent

I mean, there’s no real room for debate on that point.

Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs

by Mark Parisi on Dec 19, 2011 2:36 PM EST up reply actions  

You are saying no one has done well in the Elitserien and then the NHL?

Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan

by Adnan on Dec 19, 2011 2:47 PM EST up reply actions  

This is very interesting

And I think puts this discussion in better context.

by OD99 on Dec 19, 2011 11:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Not a dominating one like Rundblad’s Elitserien one though.

Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan

by Adnan on Dec 19, 2011 11:06 AM EST up reply actions  

"Turris’ best season was at a level even below the CHL."

The reason I brought up Turris’ good season in the AHL is because first of all, the AHL has better competition than the SEL (as does the KHL, making the SEL the 4th best league, not the 2nd or 3rd best) and secondly, you’re framing your argument as if it was all downhill for Turris after the BCHL.

You’re correct insofar as Turris hasn’t ‘dominated’ since the BCHL. He has however been solid at the college, AHL, and as of last years playoffs, the NHL levels.

by LeTigre on Dec 19, 2011 5:09 PM EST up reply actions  

I don’t think the AHL has better competition, but fair enough.

Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan

by Adnan on Dec 19, 2011 5:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Like I said somewhere below

You don’t think last year’s Houston or Binghamton squads couldn’t take the top teams from Sweden? Far more NHL ready content in the AHL, my friend.

by LeTigre on Dec 19, 2011 5:42 PM EST up reply actions  

No I don’t.

Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan

by Adnan on Dec 19, 2011 8:06 PM EST up reply actions  

The SEL is, at best, the world's fourth-best league

I was just having this discussion, I’d say it goes NHL > KHL > AHL > SEL.

From there, it’s tough to say. Maybe […] SM-liiga > NCAA > OHL > QMJHL > WHL > ECHL > ECAC > DEL > CIS, or something like that.

by Peter Raaymakers on Dec 19, 2011 11:53 AM EST up reply actions  

No chance any of the junior leagues are better than the ECHL…trust me.

by gwplant on Dec 19, 2011 11:55 AM EST up reply actions  

or college for that matter.

by gwplant on Dec 19, 2011 11:55 AM EST up reply actions  

Maybe not

I hammered that out in a few seconds of typing. But there are most definitely better players in the CHL than there are in the ECHL, which is why I made the rankings I did. Do you think the best ECHL team would beat the Memorial Cup winner in a playoff series? I’m not so sure.

You might be right in saying ECAC is better than major junior, but saying “trust me” does nothing to convince me. I very rarely trust anonymous internet commenters, and when they say “trust me” I trust them even less.

by Peter Raaymakers on Dec 19, 2011 11:59 AM EST up reply actions  

Go down the list of the rosters in the ECHL and you will find many drafted players and just look at some of the numbers by alot of the players in that league put up in major junior…ECHL is a VERY good league with many high scoring former junior players…you are trying to compare boys to men. Yes I do think the best ECHL team would quite easily beat the memorial cup winner….

by gwplant on Dec 19, 2011 12:02 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not denying that the ECHL is a very good league

I’m saying that there are many better leagues.

Compare the rosters of the 2011 Kelly Cup winner and the the 2011 Memorial Cup winner, and tell me which roster had more talent on it. Twenty years from now, tell me which team will have produced more NHL success.

by Peter Raaymakers on Dec 19, 2011 12:22 PM EST up reply actions  

You are not quantifying it correctly..you are comparing players who are under the draft age to players who have either been drafted or were past over. Look at it this way…compare the numbers of the players on the kelly cup roster in junior to those of the memorial cup winners…that is more like comparing apples to apples….

by gwplant on Dec 19, 2011 12:25 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not quantifying anything

This is a purely qualitative exercice. Because the teams in the leagues don’t play against one another, there’s really no way to do it quantitatively with any true accuracy.

by Peter Raaymakers on Dec 19, 2011 1:04 PM EST up reply actions  

I would rank NHL > KHL > SEL > AHL

Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan

by Adnan on Dec 19, 2011 11:55 AM EST up reply actions  

Not a chance that any swedish or European league is ahead of the AHL….not a chance.

by gwplant on Dec 19, 2011 11:57 AM EST up reply actions  

Okay, but I disagree.

Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan

by Adnan on Dec 19, 2011 12:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, NHL-E numbers do rank the SEL as a higher difficulty than the AHL

And NHL-E is a pretty good measure. Still, I think the quality of hockey in the AHL might be uglier than hockey in the SEL, but I’d say it’s probably more readily translated into the NHL. (Which might, granted, be a poor measure of “best league in the world.”)

by Peter Raaymakers on Dec 19, 2011 12:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Peter what was the last AHL or ECHL game you went to??

by gwplant on Dec 19, 2011 12:04 PM EST up reply actions  

you asked me the wrong question to get the right answer….ask Peter the same question.

by gwplant on Dec 19, 2011 12:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Instead of firing from the hip and attacking my league ranking

Which was, by my own admission, done with no research and purely superficial personal feelings, why don’t you make a counterpoint for discussion?

Your method of ‘debate’ is not constructive. Participate in the discussion, don’t simply attack others.

by Peter Raaymakers on Dec 19, 2011 12:08 PM EST up reply actions  

I went to an AHL game a few months ago

The B-Sens against the B-Habs, at Scotiabank Place. Compared to the NHL, it was nearly unwatchable. Seriously, it was ugly, ugly hockey.

Still, what difference does that make? The true indication of the best league comes by looking at players who come from those leagues, and seeing how they compete with other players in the best league in the world.

by Peter Raaymakers on Dec 19, 2011 12:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Your sample size is likely small….my point is you gave your opinion and I offered an alternate opinion based on personal experience and first hand knowledge. ECHL is not as bad a league as one might think and saying former highly regarded junior players and established pros would ever lose to a present junior team is just misguided.

by gwplant on Dec 19, 2011 12:10 PM EST up reply actions  

You didn't offer an alternate opinion

You offered a disparaging dismissal of my opinion, and then a plea for everyone else to blindly trust your opinion despite the fact that you offered no evidence for us to do so.

This argument is meaningless. Trying to debate with you is a waste of time.

by Peter Raaymakers on Dec 19, 2011 12:12 PM EST up reply actions  

You thinking I “dismissed” your opinion is your personal feeling on the matter…I gave my opinion which is alternate to yours by chance based on the fact that I have personal relationships with many players who have played in both major junior and ECHL, AHL and NHL and have been around championships in 2 of those 4 leagues….so you making opinions obviously based on what you read mine opinions are based on what/who I know and what I have seen.

by gwplant on Dec 19, 2011 12:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Personal relatonships of which you never stated to anyone as your personal evidence...

And not that it’s specific enough anyway. But I would grant you that the ECHL is probably a better league overall than the CHL as a whole, but there are also a lot more teams in the CHL than the ECHL, which only has 20 teams. You’re right though, a lot of ECHL players have been drafted from the CHL, and my personal (and completely subjective, unqualified opinion) is that if you were to play the best CHL team versus the best ECHL team in 7 games, the CHL team would probably give the ECHL team a run for it’s money.

by Bridges16 on Dec 19, 2011 10:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Mark Ingram-OROY
Cam Jordan-DROY
New Orleans Saints-2012 Super Bowl Champs
TOP IS GAWD!

by Alex Swift on Dec 19, 2011 9:05 PM EST up reply actions  

I actually don't think so, but that's just Binghamton

The B-Sens caught lightning in a bottle. If Lehner was able to really steal some games, they could have beaten the SEL champs, but it would be really tricky.

It would also depend on whether the games were played on international ice, NHL ice, or Broome County Veteran’s Memorial Coliseum ice.

by Peter Raaymakers on Dec 19, 2011 10:11 PM EST up reply actions  

I recognize a few names on Farjestad BK, but

…the presence of Zack Smith, Colin Greening, Bobby Butler, Kaspars Daugavins, Erik Condra, Ryan Potulny, and Cody Bass (all NHL talent), not to mention Ryan Keller, Corey Locke, and Roman Wick up front would liiiikely indicate otherwise.

And then there’s Jared Cowen and Derek Smith, not to mention Andre Benoit, Patrick Weircioch, Mark Borowiecki etc, on the back end.

Lehner has had his cup of coffee in the bigs too.

by LeTigre on Dec 19, 2011 10:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Just an FYI

A good friend of mine played in the KHL last year (has played in NHL/AHL as well, currently in AHL this year), and he said the top 4 teams in the KHL could compete with any NHL team, but the rest are comparable to lower-end AHL teams.

by pmedow on Dec 19, 2011 12:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah the KHL certainly has some players who have done well in the NHL. Jagr coming back to the NHL at this age and still being around point a game comes to mind.

Radulov was decent in the NHL too.

Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan

by Adnan on Dec 19, 2011 12:18 PM EST up reply actions  

That seems believable

In fact, I’d say the best AHL teams could probably compete with the worst NHL teams—especially if they play a sound, structured game (like Mike Yeo has implemented in Minnesota). The talent isn’t comparable, but execution is.

And as we all know, talent will only take you so far.

by Peter Raaymakers on Dec 19, 2011 1:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Unless you live in BC and have actually been to a BCHL game it might be a bit overstated to downplay the level of competition in this league…more and more players are taking the college route and are playing in the BCHL as it is the only route they can take for their junior hockey, granted it is not a high of a level as the WHL it certainly cannot be downplayed as a far inferior league….Brett Hull would likely agree with me.

by gwplant on Dec 19, 2011 11:30 AM EST up reply actions  

I think it was generally accepted that the BCHL is far inferior to the CHL, and certainly to the Elitserien.

One player dominating a professional league with men, the other dominated a 2nd tier junior league.

I am not sure anyone could make the argument that the BCHL is even in the same universe.

Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan

by Adnan on Dec 19, 2011 11:38 AM EST up reply actions  

I still don't know why we're trying to compare the two

The bottom line is that neither has accomplished much in the NHL yet, and Turris has had a longer audition. That’s about it. I don’t think anyone doubts either one’s potential.

Despite Turris’ “only” domination being of the BCHL, he was Central Scouting’s top-ranked North American skater. That has to count for something.

Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs

by Mark Parisi on Dec 19, 2011 11:43 AM EST up reply actions  

Central Scouting ranking counted for something before Turris was drafted

Since then, he had 137 games to justify his 3rd pick…so far, nada. Also, not sure how to decipher this mantra of " player not developed properly." If I were coach Dave T, I would really pissed with that analysis, or in the case of Filatov, (was it) Hitchcock(?). You suppose the Phoenix reporters are saying Rundblad has been mishandled by Ottawa’s coaches? All NHL lineups have rookies and you think NHL coaches are accustomed to working with rookies, no, yes?

The reporter from Phoenix said that Turris will do well in here, probably scoring in the neighbourhood of 15-20 goals per. That doesn’t sound like a 2nd line center does it?

by whatsinaname on Dec 19, 2011 10:38 PM EST up reply actions  

I guess that depends on whether or not you live in reality

Ian Mendes does a better job of answering the question about second line centers than I ever could, so I’m just going to link it.

I’d be thrilled if Turris managed 15-20 goals in the remaining 49 games.

Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs

by Mark Parisi on Dec 20, 2011 10:24 AM EST up reply actions  

I think she meant 15 goals per season, not remaining season.

And I was being generous stretching it to 15-20 goals. As per Mendes article, agree. 2nd line centers should be scoring around 25 goals, 50 points per season mark. The Phoenix reporter’s prediction is obviously on the low side. Don’t think BM has her kind of production in mind. Question is, is she a reliable observer?

by whatsinaname on Dec 20, 2011 10:50 AM EST up reply actions  

That, indeed, is the question

I haven’t heard anyone yet who has watched Turris say that he doesn’t have the talent to be a 50-point guy. Both Darren Pang and Pierre McGuire have said 60-70; I think that’s probably overly optimistic.

There doesn’t seem to be any question about Turris’ talent as far as I can tell. The big question is if he can turn it into production. Between Murray and MacLean, they seem to think they can bring that out in him. They’d better be right.

Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs

by Mark Parisi on Dec 20, 2011 10:59 AM EST up reply actions  

There doesn't seem to be any doubt about Filatov's hockey skills too

yet, he can’t seem to produce. Very puzzling. The more I think about the trade, the more I feel if there’s a time the team can afford to take a risk on defence to boost the center position, now is the time. Maybe I am trying to justify a done deal to make it more palatable.

by whatsinaname on Dec 20, 2011 11:34 AM EST up reply actions  

No, I think you're right on with that

I really believe that there’s not a major difference in talent at the professional level (within reason… obviously there are still generational superstars that are on the high end of the Bell Curve) and success comes down to personal work ethic, proper team development, health, and opportunity. Alfie, for instance, probably wouldn’t have been Alfie on another team. Both Turris and Filatov have gone as far as they’re going to go on talent. Their success now rests in the things we as fans don’t get to see.

Murray gambled with this trade, there’s no doubt about that. But it seems like Rundblad may have been a luxury.

Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs

by Mark Parisi on Dec 20, 2011 12:02 PM EST up reply actions  

also, by all accounts Rundblad only dominated offensively

I still read a lot of Swedish fans talking about Rundblad’s defensive lapses last season.

Co-manager, Silver Seven

by DarrenM on Dec 19, 2011 11:46 AM EST up reply actions  

Of course it is comparing apples to oranges but there is at least the talk that playing junior in NA is closer to the type of game you will play in the NHL compared to a wider, more skating less physical contact Swedish league….hence the reason that any dominating player in that league is no sure thing upon arriving and playing in NA and the NHL, totally different more physical game obviously.

by gwplant on Dec 19, 2011 11:46 AM EST up reply actions  

Compared to every other developmental league

The BCHL is inferior. That’s why there are far fewer players being drafted from the BCHL, and even fewer becoming regular NHL players.

The argument isn’t that the BCHL is a bad league. It’s that the BCHL isn’t as good as other leagues players are typically drafted from, including the OHL, WHL, and QMJHL.

by Peter Raaymakers on Dec 19, 2011 12:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Third overall, and third on his team

Skelleftea was stacked last year, and that most certainly benefitted Rundblad’s production. I’d be interested in hearing if a lot of Rundblad’s success came on the powerplay.

by Peter Raaymakers on Dec 19, 2011 11:51 AM EST up reply actions  

I watched a Rundblad highlights video last night.

He was not just benefitting from him. In fact, I’d say his teammates were getting a lot of points off of incredible set-ups and rushes by him.

And sure, it was a Rundblad highlight video… but there were a LOT of highlights in it. I don’t know exactly what percentage of his points it showcased, but it was non-trivial… and most of them showed plays where he was doing the creating.

It made me sad/worried. I mean, obviously I’ll give Turris a chance. But I must admit I’m a bit worried about giving up (d-man with unprecedented young performance in SEL developing/playing among fellow Swedes on Sens who has had a bit of trouble adjusting in totally expectable ways) for (malcontent with skill who has failed to live up to high-draft-pick expectations).

by sensory_experience on Dec 19, 2011 11:55 AM EST up reply actions  

interesting

well written article. gonna be interesting to see how it plays out.

by sensfan_19 on Dec 19, 2011 10:37 AM EST reply actions  

My worry...

Is that a year from now we’ll be talking about Turris the same way we talk about Filatov now.

Also, last thought on Rundblad: That pass!!!

by DrZee on Dec 19, 2011 11:12 AM EST reply actions  

It's a legitmate worry

Turris is very far from a sure thing himself.

Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs

by Mark Parisi on Dec 19, 2011 11:15 AM EST up reply actions  

Because of Turris’s age and lack of pro experience one can only go by what they know and what we know is the greatest hockey player that ever lived wanted this kid in the worst way at the draft. Gretzky’s coaching ability may always come into question but the ability to see natural God given talent likely isn’t.

by gwplant on Dec 19, 2011 11:34 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't think anyone is doubting Turris' talent

No one doubts Filatov’s, either. There are plenty of other leagues filled with guys who had the talent to play in the NHL but didn’t make it. Talent isn’t enough.

The question now is whether Paul MacLean can develop Turris and whether Turris is willing to do what it takes to be developed.

Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs

by Mark Parisi on Dec 19, 2011 11:36 AM EST up reply actions  

It’d be really interesting to know what kind of input McLean had in the decision to get Turris.

by Marvellous on Dec 19, 2011 11:42 AM EST up reply actions  

Of course but not many catch the eye of Gretzky and willingness to do almost anything to land the player….

by gwplant on Dec 19, 2011 11:43 AM EST up reply actions  

How does Gretzky's interest in Turris prove he's worth it?

If anything, it would be (as Mark pointed out, above) the fact that he was Scouting Central’s top-ranked North American skater that would make him so valuable a prospect.

by JonathanA on Dec 19, 2011 11:47 AM EST up reply actions  

Central Scouting is obviously the standard but one would have to at least give Gretzky some credit about being able to spot talent….he would know.

by gwplant on Dec 19, 2011 11:48 AM EST up reply actions  

Obviously but if there is one person that could be given credit for being able to it would be Gretzky…not sure if you were around in the early 80’s but when you watched what this guy could do you give him the benefit of the doubt in being able to know what talent is…

by gwplant on Dec 19, 2011 11:52 AM EST up reply actions  

I disagree…he might not be able to coach but he also knew Crosby had the “it” factor at a very young age…that turned out pretty well.

by gwplant on Dec 19, 2011 12:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Him and half the hockey world

And I don’t feel like I’m exaggerating at all when I say that.

by B_T on Dec 19, 2011 12:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Difference is I am willing to give the greatest hockey player of all time the benefit of the doubt when it comes to knowing what hockey talent is…you disagree so be it.

by gwplant on Dec 19, 2011 12:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Right. I'm not.

Because they’re completely different skill sets that have almost nothing to do with each other.

by B_T on Dec 19, 2011 12:09 PM EST up reply actions  

That is just your opinion and unless you are skating in his skates you cannot profess this with 100% certainty like you are attempting to.

by gwplant on Dec 19, 2011 12:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Neither can you

That is the point.

B_T has personal demands before being convinced that an individual can adequately assess NHL talent. You, apparently, do not have as stringent a system. That is fine. It is a difference of opinion. Differences of opinion aren’t wrong.

by Peter Raaymakers on Dec 19, 2011 12:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Being good at a sport does not mean you're a good scout

All you have to do is just look at the NBA and Micheal Jordan’s drafting record. It SUCKS!!!

by Misellati on Dec 19, 2011 12:17 PM EST up reply actions  

It's not just my opinion

It’s the opinion of many professional scouts and players.

They’re two different skill sets, plain and simple. Excellence in one, even “best ever” status, does not mean potential for excellence in the other.

Can one person excel at both? Yes, it can happen. Is Gretzky one of those people? Unknown.

by B_T on Dec 19, 2011 12:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Down the road

Now that our D is 7 deep and no more logjam, Murry can watch Kuba and Gonchar recoup value. One or both will be traded by year end for pics or prospects. I also see Borocop comming up for about a 20 game tryout at the end of the year based on his performance in camp.

by Drockidy on Dec 19, 2011 11:25 AM EST reply actions  

I can’t see both Kuba and Gonchar being traded now this season. One (Kuba) most likely.

But I couldn’t see Rundblad being traded by mid-December either.

Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan

by Adnan on Dec 19, 2011 11:28 AM EST up reply actions  

Comparing players

GMs and scouts and fans like us for that matter are working at comparing apples and oranges. We are comparing players and their accomplishments from different leagues, with different competition, different countries and different ice surfaces.

That’s why predicting how a player is going to perform is so difficult and why BM doesn’t make the same kind of wages most of the rest of us do.

The best player on a given team gets all kinds of perks, especially all the ice time in the world, and then he moves to another team with high expectations and the coach puts him at the bottom of the heap to “prove himself”.

Some players take a while to sort themselves out. Some never do.

Alot of us figured that Rundblad would be an instant star because of last year.

Now after a handful of games, we rolled the dice towards what we hope is a better deal… Turris.

IMO we overpaid and time will tell. I believe that if we judged that Rundblad should be moved for more offence, we could have done way better than Turris, turning the asset into a much better player… by getting a first rounder, and combined with the second rounder we paid we could have gotten a much better asset… but who knows.

I hope that I’m wrong. I’ll be cheering for Turris like crazy on Thursday at the game.

by Marvellous on Dec 19, 2011 11:28 AM EST reply actions  

I'm 100% with you on that.

I think you really nailed it on the head there, and I’m grabbing tickets for Thursday just to see him! It’s going to be an intriguing next few games for us Sens fans….buckle up!

by Bridges16 on Dec 19, 2011 10:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Fun Kyle Turris fact

At the 2008 Wrold Junior Hockey Championship, Canada won gold. Their leading scorer, and fourth in tourney scoring? Kyle Turris, who had 4 goals, 8 points in 7 games. He was ahead of teammates Drew Doughty, P.K. Subban, Steven Stamkos, John Tavares, Claude Giroux, and Brad Marchand.

Less fun Kyle Turris fact: Nikita Filatov had 9 points in the same World Junior Hockey Championship.

Co-manager, Silver Seven

by DarrenM on Dec 19, 2011 11:41 AM EST reply actions  

Filatov sounds good

We should try to get him.

Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs

by Mark Parisi on Dec 19, 2011 11:46 AM EST up reply actions  

haha

You shouldve just written that instead of doing all this research

Analysing The Rundblad-Turris Trade:

Rundblad SUCKSSSSS!!!!

Turris 4 LYFEEEE!!!!

The End

by Misellati on Dec 19, 2011 11:51 AM EST reply actions  

Runblad 20 years from now

So 20 years from now, Rundblad has played some 1500 games, scored 1000 points, 7 times Norris throphy winner, maybe a Conn Smythe on the way to one of 4 Stanely Cups with Quebec Nordiques who were relocated from Pheonix in 2014… we look back to the trade last weekend and think to ourselves – how did we trade him (Nicklas Lidstrom) after just 24 games?!
That is the worst case scenario – Rundblad has same size, weight as Nicklas Lidstrom and maybe more skills than Lidstrom had 20 years ago, but we will know in 20 years or less… He may be just a second coming of Brian Lee too…
On the other hand if we win one or multiple cups ridding Spezza, Turris, Michalek, Zibanajad and the group, then who cares….
Brian Lee, Nicklas Lidstrom or anything in between, but how do you know now?
For now it was 6th defenceman + a pick for 2nd line center…
For now it was 16th pick + ~46th pick for a 3rd pick
For now it was a hole on the second line that needed to be plugged
For now it was David Rundblad and not Nicklas Lidstrom…

I know that, that doesn't matter, I know you Mr. Rainey, that's what matters. You stole my story.

by TaBu on Dec 19, 2011 12:06 PM EST reply actions  

Come on, TaBu

It’s as likely that Rundblad goes back to the SEL and doesn’t play another NHL season as it is that he…

played some 1500 games, scored 1000 points, 7 times Norris throphy winner, maybe a Conn Smythe on the way to one of 4 Stanely Cups with Quebec Nordiques who were relocated from Pheonix in 2014

You’re just making wild projections to make this a worst-case scenario. That doesn’t help your argument.

by Peter Raaymakers on Dec 19, 2011 12:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed

Those predictions are reaching a bit (or a lot)

by pmedow on Dec 19, 2011 12:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Ha, but that is exactly what I have said in the rest of the comment :)

We in Ottawa think he was Lidstrom in the making, but really he could be just Brian Lee… I think it is human nature that when you care about something/someone very much, you want them to succeeed, you root for them, you invest emotionaly in them and when it fails, you take it personal and get upset about it, unfortunatelly in this case we did not get to see success or failure (in Ottawa), but expectations were built up and without a failure this was very much already a success in our minds :)
Anyway, I predicted Turris for Rundblad+a pick a month ago and 20 years from now I will be able to point to this comment and say that I predicted Rundblad’s stelar carrer too. If I predict enough, I am bound to succeed some… :)

I know that, that doesn't matter, I know you Mr. Rainey, that's what matters. You stole my story.

by TaBu on Dec 19, 2011 12:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes you certainly did predict it

And I kind of laughed at it. So I apologise. ;)

Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan

by Adnan on Dec 19, 2011 12:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Whoops... sorry

I should probably have read the whole comment.

by Peter Raaymakers on Dec 19, 2011 1:02 PM EST up reply actions  

David, we hardly knew you

Seeing him at the prospects camp, I wondered what all the hype was about. He looked slow of foot speed & movements, and frail. Watching him play in the bigs, I was impressed that he could hit and pass with great vision, but ragged the puck too much & played like he had not been trained in defensive zone coverage. With David gone, we are only one concussed hit away from lacking an offensive defenceman on the roster, given that Gonchar is probably trade bait. I have to think that our super coaching staff have a lot of input into who plays & who goes. Comparing Karllson to the youth corp who come & go, I think the intangibles he has that make a difference are his attitude, his coachability, and primarily his adaptability which account for his rapid development into an all-star. David did not have time to adapt & I wish him well.

by XMAN69 on Dec 19, 2011 12:34 PM EST reply actions  

Sincèrement,

I wish that he has a great career in Phoenix (or other). Both teams can be happy with the trade down the road. Why do we have to make winners out of either? Look at it this way, Ottawa got their 2nd line forward they were looking for and Phoenix gets a NHL defenseman and a second round pick. Everybody should be happy.

by Bikini Cowboy on Dec 21, 2011 2:21 PM EST up reply actions  

What about the human element of this trade?

You’ve gotta think that this trade steps on the toes of Karlsson and even Zibanejad. Think back to them rockin’ KISS outfits at Halloween.

I know you probably shouldn’t consider “feelings” in this deal, but it’s just another negative about it.

We’ll wait and see!! TURRIS 4 LYFE!

by oldmonk on Dec 19, 2011 12:48 PM EST reply actions  

I think you expect that sort of thing

It happens regularly in professional hockey. I’m sure Karlsson has plenty of other friends on the team, and I’m sure Zibanejad will make friends quickly when he’s around next season.

by Peter Raaymakers on Dec 19, 2011 1:03 PM EST up reply actions  

what?

how is that a negative?

I know that, that doesn't matter, I know you Mr. Rainey, that's what matters. You stole my story.

by TaBu on Dec 19, 2011 12:52 PM EST reply actions  

Betting money?

If you all had to bet $1,000 of your money on which one of Turris or Rundblad would be a star in the NHL in the next 4 years… all things else being equal, who would you pick? I realize that the trade wasn’t done on this basis, but my money would go on Rundblad.

On the other hand, maybe… just maybe this move opens the door for BoroCop to become a stud.

by Marvellous on Dec 19, 2011 1:16 PM EST reply actions  

I would bet on Turris

He has more experience and will be given a role where he is more likely to succeed. In Ottawa Rundblad would have been kept behind Karlsson, Cowen, Phillips, so 2nd D line at best, which is not bad, but even that is not a gurantee… In Phoenix I doubt he will be put on ice for 25mins anytime soon either…

I know that, that doesn't matter, I know you Mr. Rainey, that's what matters. You stole my story.

by TaBu on Dec 19, 2011 1:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Four years? Probably Turris.

Career wise? Rundblad.

But I wouldn’t make the bet, because it’s a crapshoot.

by Peter Raaymakers on Dec 19, 2011 2:37 PM EST up reply actions  

You don’t like risky bets, we know that already Peter.

Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan

by Adnan on Dec 19, 2011 2:47 PM EST up reply actions  

One more...

One more comparison popped into my mind driving to work this morning – since Turris is a RFA at the end of the season, this could be viewed as a reverse contract sheet offer.
Since we know that Murray got Turris for a 1st and 2nd rounders, this is more than a compensation paid to someone who is later signed for a cap hit in a range $3,134,089 to $4,701,131 (First- and third-round pick), so Murray thinks Turris is worth more than that? 5M a year? ($4,701,132 to $6,268,175 is for First-, second-, and third-round pick).

  1. If he has decent 2 seasons, K.Turris can ask for 5M when he is RFA…
  2. If we could lure away let’s say David Krejci from Boston for ~similar amount, meaning similar picks, or some other RFA… possibilities are almost endless here…
    NOW I think we’ve operpaid…

I know that, that doesn't matter, I know you Mr. Rainey, that's what matters. You stole my story.

by TaBu on Dec 19, 2011 1:36 PM EST reply actions  

Premièrement,

You assume that Krejci would be a free agent and, second, that he would sign with us. When was the last time Ottawa signed a big FA forward? Kovalev. I am happy with Turris.

by Bikini Cowboy on Dec 21, 2011 2:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Je crois qu'on oublie un fait

If the original offer was Rundblad – Turris. Then i am happy with adding a 2nd to make the deal. I would prefered to make a straight swap but Phoenix would have traded him elsewhere instead.

by Bikini Cowboy on Dec 21, 2011 2:16 PM EST reply actions  

Quelqu'un d'autre?

Anybody else sees this as a reverse Vermette – Leclaire + 2nd trade?

I remember seeing this trade as a straight swap and thinking Ottawa should have gotten more. Then News hit about the 2nd round pick and then i was happy about the trade. We had excess of Forwards and a short fall of Goalies. Years later, I am happier with the pick then any of the players. Am i going to be sadder ablout the pick we lost? Does Columbus wish they had Lehner?

by Bikini Cowboy on Dec 21, 2011 2:26 PM EST reply actions  

I thought of that comparison

We’ll see if it’s right in due time, but it’s an interesting one.

by Peter Raaymakers on Dec 21, 2011 3:40 PM EST up reply actions  

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