Senators acquire Kyle Turris from Coyotes for David Rundblad and a 2nd round pick
by Mark Parisi on Dec 17, 2011 4:02 PM EST
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PrintSenators GM Bryan Murray swung for the fences today, acquiring center Kyle Turris from the Phoenix Coyotes in exchange for defenseman David Rundblad and a 2012 second round pick. There's a lot happening in this trade, so we're going to break this down FAQ-style. For those wondering, I was a Phoenix resident until late last year, so my opinion is going to be based on what I saw.
Who is Kyle Turris?
Turris was the third overall pick of the 2007 draft, selected only behind Patrick Kane, now of the Chicago Blackhawks, and James van Riemsdyk, now of the Philadelphia Flyers. NHL Central Scouting had Turris ranked as the top North American skater that year, above both Kane and van Riemsdyk. The Coyotes were ecstatic when they drafted him -- they envisioned him as their primary building block. At one time, they were rumored to be trying to move up to first overall to ensure they could get him. Then-head coach Wayne Gretzky was reportedly enamored with his speed and skill.
After being drafted, Turris returned to the Wisconsin Badgers and put up 35 points (11G, 24A) in 36 games. In 2008-09, he put up seven points (4G, 3A) in eight games for the San Antonio Rampage, Phoenix's AHL team, before playing 63 games for the Coyotes. He only managed 20 points (8G, 12A) in those games, playing mostly situationally as a rookie.
2009-10 saw him spend more time in the AHL developing, as the big club rode the outstanding play of Ilya Bryzgalov and highly structured system of new head coach Dave Tippet to a playoff berth.
This is where things get dodgy. Tippet was brought in to bring structure to a team in desperate need of it. He is an extremely astute coach who demands adherence to a defensive plan in the mold of Ken Hitchcock and Jacques Martin. Turris' freewheeling. up-ice play did not resonate well with that style.
Still, he was able to make the team last season, and put up just 25 points (11G, 14A) in 65 games, largely relegated to a fourth-line role by the structure-minded Tippet. The team made the playoffs that year, and drew the Detroit Red Wings as their opponents. The structure broke down and saw the Coyotes play a more offensive style to match their opponents in a great seven-game series that saw Detroit score 26 goals while the Coyotes scored 18. Turris played in four of those games and recorded a goal and two assists.
He then held out, got the contract he wanted, and got traded to Ottawa.
Bottom line: There is a ton of potential talent in him; he needs the right coach to bring it out.
(read on for so much more...)
Is he skilled?
He is a smooth, fast skater who will give Karlsson a run for his money.
I meant with the puck.
Judge for yourself:
Wow, he sounds like he poops out rainbows. Why would the Coyotes give up on him?
Turris is by no means a complete player. His defensive game needs a ton of work, and he is only 22 years old, so he also needs to add more muscle.
I don't want a guy that can't play defense.
Keep in mind that Dave Tippet doesn't simply require his players to "play defense." There's a very strict structure in place there. Turris did not adapt well to it. That doesn't mean he can't, or won't, play defense. His two-way play was actually considered a strength coming into the 2007 draft. He is also a physical player not scared to take or give a hit.
But he won't win a Selke, right?
No, he will not.
Why now?
Nick Foligno has taken two knee-on-knee hits in two nights. This second one might keep him out for a while. That's my best guess.
Where will he fit?
Given the price paid and the current lineup, you have to believe he's going to slot right into the second line center position. Peter Regin has performed well playing wing before.
We don't need a second line center!
Mika Zibanejad is back in Sweden for the year and Stephane Da Costa is better served developing in Binghamton. Turris is already a more talented center than Regin. Keep in mind that Turris is also one of the fastest skaters on the team. Playing him with Colin Greening and Nick Foligno could pay immediate dividends, not only for the line's grit and speed, but also because it creates a first line of Milan Michalek, Jason Spezza, and Daniel Alfredsson.
I hate this trade!
Keep in mind that evaluating a trade immediately is hard to do. It usually takes a few years to really get a sense of the outcome, as we have recently seen with Milan Michalek and Dany Heatley.
Think about the future.
You mean the future with depth down the middle of Spezza, Turris, and Zibanejad? If the prospect of Mika Zibanejad facing off against third line competition doesn't get you excited, I don't know what to tell you.
What about Regin and Da Costa?
The bottom line is that they have some really tough competition to beat out if they want to play for the Ottawa Senators in the future. If they can't, there's a good chance they could be traded themselves in exchange for a defenseman to fill the gaps when Kuba, Gonchar, and Phillips are gone.
Did we give up too much to get Turris?
Yes. But that's okay. Though he tore up the SEL last year, David Rundblad has struggled this year adapting to the North American game. That said, Rundblad was without a doubt Ottawa's biggest blue chip (although perhaps closely followed by Robin Lehner) and was a high price to give up.
However, between the emergence of Erik Karlsson and Jared Cowen, Rundblad was never going to get top pairing minutes. That made him expendable, because a second-line center is more valuable than a second-pairing defenseman.
In terms of draft value, Murray esentially traded a first round pick (16th overall) and second round pick for a top three pick. Many Sens fans were willing to trade more than this to move up in this past year's draft.
Can I still call him MechaKarlsson?
Yes. Yes, you can.
So, he's going to tear it up against Buffalo on Tuesday, right?
You never know. It will take him time to adjust to a new system and new teammates, but there's no doubt that he has the hockey skill to excel. How long that will take him is anybody's guess.
That was really long. Can you wrap it up?
Karlsson and Cowen have given the team the luxury of depth on defense, at least in the short term. Rather than building on that depth, Murray has chosen to take advantage of it and attempt to build true top-six talent.
In the end, what we see here is Murray trading potential for potential. Turris' ceiling projects as higher than Rundblad's, but both players have underperformed, and Turris has done so in a much longer audition. I've believed, quite firmly, that it was the system he was in that was holding him back. If that is true, then Ottawa may have stolen themselves an excellent player long term. If it's not, this will go down as yet another bad gamble by Murray.
Murray's moves have made it clear that he intends to load the team with offensive talent as the next phase of Senate Reform. The acquisition of Turris is just the latest move in that plan.
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Hey Mark, unrelated but I figured out why Erik Karlsson's hair is so awful
He’s obviously competing with Panthers goalie Jacob Markstrom in a bizarre game of hair clipper chicken:
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These guys have nothing on Justin Pogge
Sterling Snakehouse - Silver Seven
by Ryan Classic on Dec 17, 2011 4:44 PM EST up reply actions
He runs moonshine in the offseason, I just know it
Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs
Holy crap.
Justin Pogge is Val Kilmer as Madmartigan in 1988’s Willow.
by RogerTheShrubber on Dec 17, 2011 11:42 PM EST up reply actions
This is the definition of high risk/high reward
The reason you don’t see many trades like this is because GMs typically have a keen sense of self-preservation. Lots of ways this could go.
Yup
If nothing else, it’s pretty gutsy.
by Sens Fan In NYC on Dec 17, 2011 4:27 PM EST up reply actions
He's REALLY talented.
I’m really high on him, but I wish we had found a way to trade one of Regin/Da Costa for him instead of Rundblad.
Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs
Pretty sure it went like this:
Murray: I will give you Da Costa.
Maloney: I don’t want players who skate with their heads down.
Murray: His head isn’t always down, it’s just that small.
Maloney: Lies. Nobody’s head is that small.
Murray: Fine. Rundblad?
Sterling Snakehouse - Silver Seven
by Ryan Classic on Dec 17, 2011 4:22 PM EST up reply actions
I think it was a short sighted move
Turris can probably help the club make the playoffs more than Rundblad this year. But eventually we’ll have Zibanejad and sure you can play him on the 3rd line but we have a lot of 2nd line candidates.
What we no longer have is any defenceman currently projecting onto the 2nd pairing in the future. The upgrade from Zibanejad/Regin to Turris (if that is even an upgrade) doesn’t offset the downgrade from losing Rundblad.
Foligno is fine by the way according to MacLean. The only thing I can think of is that Murray doesn’t think the club will suck enough to get one of those 3-4 star forwards in the 1st round. After that there are a lot of defenceman available from what I’ve read, so he hopes to replace Rundblad that way.
Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan
I don't know if I feel trading for a 22-year old is ever a short-sighted move
I think there’s a chance that Turris could replace Spezza one day, but that will be years down the road.
There’s no doubt, however, that our defensive depth is now lacking. Kuba, Gonchar, and Phillips will all need replacing in the next three years. I don’t know if it’s fair to say we have no defensemen projecting into a second-pairing slot. I still think Weircioch could fit there, and there’s always free agency and the draft. The need there is not immediate.
Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs
Well Murray’s comments make it seem like that. He said with Gonchar coming back, he didn’t think Rundblad was going to get a chance this year and it wasn’t fair to him.
So wait a year, end him to the AHL? Seems like he was a bit fixated on this year.
Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan
I know what you mean
But there’s a chance that Turris will prove a bigger contributor to the team than Rundblad will every year. That was clearly enticing enough for Murray to pull the trigger.
Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs
On the other hand this does open a spot for Lee in the future plans of the club. He’s being given an opportunity to make a mark this season and really establish himself, which I do think is great as I think he can definitely be a serviceable 2/3 pairing d-man.
by modsuperstar on Dec 17, 2011 5:58 PM EST up reply actions
I concur
BLee has been solid if unspectacular. He’s a fine 3/4 and a great 5/6. I hope the bashing is done..I’ve grown to like him.
"I couldn't score in a brothel...couldn't finish a sandwich"
- Joe Corvo
Agree
Rundblad was the least consistent Dman so far this year, and Cowen’s emergence and Lee’s and Kuba’s improved play made Rundblad expendable. I’m guessing that the timing of Carkner rejoining the lineup helped make this deal.
I do wonder if the season tanks, whether we’d deal Gonchar and/or Kuba at the deadline, and if so what happens next year.
In hindsight its making room for a log jam
Remember a couple of years ago, the Sens were called the laziest team in the NHL, this was because of the lack of competitiveness for spots on the team. It was CASH line, a solid Fisher line, a pesky Kelly line, and an enforcer/weak prospect 4th line. Our affiliate team then was horrible, no up and coming prospects like we have now, therefore our Stanley Final Sens were eroded by controversy, media, and time. We tried to plug in veteran pieces that didn’t fit into our organisation to provide instant success, Sutton, Cullen, Kovalev, but all it did was help bring down the once winning Juggernaut. After the overhaul of last year a lot of my favorites were traded, and look what we have now, a bright future on offense:
Acquired 1st rounders: Noenson, Puempel
Acquired 2nd rounders: Prince
Along with our own picks: Zibanejed, Pageau
Like the defense logjam we’ll soon have a forward log jam with Stone, hopefully Filatov, Regin and now Turris next year. This will provide competition and a better team overall in the future.
Don’t forget we are still rebuilding and WON’T make the playoffs, especially in our division, (mere 8 point difference from top to bottom).
Also this year’s draft will have immense depth on defense with a few standout forwards, Yakupov, Forsberg, Galyschuck and at the pace we’re going right now they’re probably going to be gone before we draft, therefore we are most likely going to draft a defense this year again.
I like (love) Rundblad and I believed he was going to be a Karlsson, if not better then Karlsson and it would also support the notion we are the Canadian Detroit but in hind sight we gain a #3 overall forward prospect to make room for another defender that is going to come into our organisation next summer.
Adnan - you love Swedes so much
I bet you sh!t meatballs. I think that Zbad is going to take more time to develop than was hoped. And I DO like the idea of him playing against 3rd liners when he solidly cracks the line-up. This has a Detroit-like feel, imo. That is, for years they had guys like Filpula down on their 3rd line and Darren Helm a playoff call-up. Real offensive depth throughout their line-up. And you look at the way players are getting shelacked these days…
I do think that Rundblad was made expendible by the play of a number of Sens D-men. Bmurr capitalized on a potential sell-high situatution, I think.
by west-sider on Dec 17, 2011 4:26 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Ha it was nothing to do with him being Swedish
I feel we overpaid too much to acquire a position we already have a lot of candidates for.
Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan
Shit meatballs?
That had better be a joke…
Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs
Huh?
“What we no longer have is any defenceman currently projecting onto the 2nd pairing in the future. "
Adnan, you really need to do a better job of following the Sens prospects. The Sens are very high on Mark Borowiecki (aka BoroCop) and project him to be a 3-4 and they still believe that Patrick Wiercoch with more AHL seasoning will slot into that role as well. Not to mention guys like Wideman and Cloesen are also on management’s radar. We also have Gonchar and Phillips for another year at least which would give us time to select a stud defencemen from the 2012 crop (Ceci, Dumba, Murray, etc.)
From the sounds of things, the scouts and coaching staff soured on Rundblad, and his regressing play probably drove Maclean nuts (“why won’t this kid listen”).
Losing Rundblad may hurt this team, but imo, every time he hit the ice, I kept getting this feeling that he was more and more becoming a bust. He never had that “wow” factor that Karlsson had that excused his mistakes with the puck.
by The Dutch Treat on Dec 17, 2011 5:48 PM EST up reply actions
Good Gamble
Yeah, we’ve got prospects on D galore. Karlsson and Cowen are going to be big stars for years. Lee is quietly having a good year, and could continue to get better for a few years. Carks is solid. By the time Gonch and Philly are gone we’ll have a few good defensemen earning minutes from the A.
WHAT WE’VE NEEDED FOR YEARS IS A LEGIT #2 CENTRE. Now we have TWO big-time centre prospects in Turris and Z-Bad! AND they’re really young! AND we finally seem to have a great coach!
I think Rundblad will be a good offensive D-man for years in the NHL, but I think he was an easy price to pay for this deal. The 2nd rounder hurts a bit, but still I think it’s a good gamble.
I wouldn't say we've got prospects galore
But there’s no doubt about our top pairing for the future.
Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs
By prospects, I’m including Karlsson, Cowen, Lee, Wiercoch, Borowiecki, Gryba, and Wideman. With the cushion contracts of Kuba, Gonchar and Phillips, there is time for any or all of these guys, and one or two other new drafts to help the Sens for years to come. The situation is pretty good on D for the foreseeable future, especially with the way Karlsson and Cowen are playing now.
Ha
Hard to think of Karlsson and Cowen as prospects with the minutes they’re playing. But you’re right about the cushion.
Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs
Murray's comments sound like this is a "win now/playoff push" type move
I don’t like that.
Co-manager, Silver Seven
It is kindda true...
Right now, the trade makes sense – Turris this year will be better than Rundblad who is mighty strugling, we are a playoff bound team with a small improvement, but it MAY be just as good in the future. However I feel we are getting really deep in offense and on defense we are starting to lack quality in our depth.
I like it, even if it did not come out right out of Murray’s mouth..
I know that, that doesn't matter, I know you Mr. Rainey, that's what matters. You stole my story.
Hm
This could be the defining moment for Murray going forward. If Rundblad blossoms and Turris busts, the fans are going to call for his head. This is unlike the Filatov move because of how much we gave up and we need to see results this time.
This trade makes me think of the 2010 trade that sent Cam Barker from the Hawks to the Wild. People were worried because Barker was the second best Offensive D-man on the team at the time and it put more pressure on Duncan Keith. Keith turned into an absolute behemoth (ex. 2010 playoffs—blocked a shot with his face) after that trade. Maybe Karlsson and Cowen use this as fuel for the future.
I don’t understand why a guy like Filatov is available for cheap and a contract holdout like Turris is so expensive. Please, somebody help me makes sense of it.
It's all about relative value
The Blue Jackets had given up on Filatov ever reaching the potential of his draft position. The Coyotes had not. Knowing that Turris was coveted by other teams, they could keep their asking price high, since if they kept him in their own organization, they didn’t lose anything.
Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs
Also, Filatov was a flight risk whereas Turris, one would assume, is not.
The Artist Formerly Known as CP2Devil.
Associate Editor at Five For Howling.
Turris is Canadian.....where is he gonna run away to...
besides, he does not like Russian food.
by whatsinaname on Dec 17, 2011 5:55 PM EST up reply actions
And
I do believe it is harder to come by great offensive prospects than defensive prospects, so I like the deal from that angle.
For Kyle’s sake I hope things work out in Ottawa. Any thoughts on who his potential linemates could be?
The Artist Formerly Known as CP2Devil.
Associate Editor at Five For Howling.
Almost certainly they'll be Nick Foligno and Daniel Alfredsson
The Sens will probably try to use our most responsible forwards to cover up Turris’ defensive shortcomings.
Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs
System!
What you said about the system he was in is a good point. I’m just weary of losing Rundblad, with time I think he’s going to be a solid defenceman. Then again, maybe the Coyotes system will suit him better defensively.
by I Still Miss Hossa!!! on Dec 17, 2011 4:24 PM EST up reply actions
Their system should suit him very well
There’s not going to be much question where his outlet pass is, and he should be able to hit it very easily.
Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs
Agreed. I’m hoping they send him down to Portland to get acclimated to the system and get him some more North American ice rink time before they bring him to Phoenix.
I’m in love with the Coyotes blue line possibilities, especially long term. The org is stacked with quality blueliners.
The Artist Formerly Known as CP2Devil.
Associate Editor at Five For Howling.
A Yandle-Rundblad could be a very real possiblity next year
And they would be outstanding together.
Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs
Plus Klesla and Sclemko. As I said the cupboard is overflowing. That doesn’t even include Summers, Goncharov, and Stone.
The Artist Formerly Known as CP2Devil.
Associate Editor at Five For Howling.
Yeah, you guys are stacked
But no one knows about it because it’s Phoenix.
Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs
Oh my God
Assuming the Phoenix Coyotes move to Quebec City or the GTA, I am not looking forward to having that pairing in Ottawa’s division.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Dec 17, 2011 10:07 PM EST up reply actions
My guess would be Butler
Regin will probably slide down to the third and play with Z. Smith and Neil. No way Konopka is a scratch after last game.
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Daugavins is the only forward who can be reassigned without waivers
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by Ryan Classic on Dec 17, 2011 4:28 PM EST up reply actions
With Filatov gone, only three players can be sent to the AHL without having to clear waivers
Daugavins, Cowen, and Karlsson.
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by Ryan Classic on Dec 17, 2011 4:30 PM EST up reply actions
Back to the 67's he goes
Our OHL farm team, see.
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by Ryan Classic on Dec 17, 2011 4:34 PM EST up reply actions
I don't know about that,
67’s have a lot of good d’men. Not sure Karlsson can crack the lineup at Landsdowne.
by whatsinaname on Dec 17, 2011 5:59 PM EST up reply actions
Butler doesn't have to clear waivers
He just would have to be paid NHL salary.
Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan
You'd have to think Daugavins, simply because of his contract situation
I don’t know if that’s worth it, though
Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs
I think he's needed on the PK
The team wants to avoid using Alfredsson for such tough minutes, I think, so we need Daugavins around to work with Condra, Zmith, and Winchester. Especially since Zmith takes so many dumb penalties.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Dec 17, 2011 10:09 PM EST up reply actions
Yep, to be rejected by your first "lover"/team is very hard to accept
….not speaking from experience of course.
by whatsinaname on Dec 17, 2011 10:12 PM EST up reply actions
Neil was on the 2nd line last game, I would expect him to drop from 2nd
We’ll probably see Greening-Spezza-Alfredsson and Regin-Turris-Foligno until Michalek is back.
Neil will probably go on 4th with Konopka and WInchester and Butler scratched.
Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan
That's how I see it as well
Except I think Neil will only slide down to the third line.
Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs
Makes sense.
While everyone talks about his defensive liabilities which are obvious, he still needs to work on finishing on the offensive end as well.
The Artist Formerly Known as CP2Devil.
Associate Editor at Five For Howling.
I like this deal a lot.
Rundblad’s a great prospect, but his skill set too closely mirrored that of Karlsson in my opinion. How many offensive defencemen do we need anyway? Turris’ ceiling, as mentioned, is huge. Hopefully he’ll be able to handle the pressure he’s going to come under now.
Shawn McEachern: The best Senator to ever wear 15.
Zack Smith: The future best Senator to ever wear 15.
by Speedy_McEachern on Dec 17, 2011 4:24 PM EST reply actions
Fantastic assessment of the trade
Sens still overpaid, but as ever, the silver seven community has balanced my initial reaction.bravo.
Scholar, Gentleman, Shameless Sens Homer with a Heart of Gold.
by Johnny_Spectacular on Dec 17, 2011 4:24 PM EST via mobile reply actions
They definitely did
But they’re buying potential. Hopefully it pays off this time around.
Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs
It had better
It’s going to be a while before I accept Murray traded Rundblad. Stages of grief, and all that. A top three of Karlsson, Cowen & Rundblad.
TSN on Filatov
Senators assign Filatov to Binghamton; suspension expected.
To get him off the roster/cap
Until he signs a contract with CSKA, the Sens have to pay him. So by suspending him for not being in Binghamton, they don’t.
Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan
How Long?
How long until he gets a deal? What’s taking so long?
by I Still Miss Hossa!!! on Dec 17, 2011 4:36 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah I would guess until he signs a contract with CSKA.
Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan
Weird
I dunno, I just find it’s a weird situation. Is he really going to want to come back after all this?
by I Still Miss Hossa!!! on Dec 17, 2011 4:40 PM EST up reply actions
Murrays comments sounds fair
Rundblad has too many skills that we already have and therefore have no use for. He even goes on to say he thinks Rundblad wouldve been a really good player for them as early as next year. Coming from BMs mouth the trade sounds really sensible
Official Coyotes press release makes me sad.
“Turris appeared in six games with the Coyotes this season, recording four PIM.”
Sterling Snakehouse - Silver Seven
That's okay. He's obviously a grinder with numbers like those.
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by Ryan Classic on Dec 17, 2011 4:42 PM EST up reply actions
I really hope Turris gets a real chance
And not sent to the 4th line if he doesn’t score by Thursday.
Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan
I'm sure a KHL team would give him a contract
Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs
Well I picked up Turris in both Silver Seven leagues
Dropped Couturier and Nabokov.
Go Turris!
Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan
I'm glad you're embracing the newest addition
Personally, I’m guessing MacLean had an interest in acquiring Turris. If he didn’t, and if he isn’t interested in putting him in a position to succeed, then this deal is even worse than it appears at first glance.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Dec 17, 2011 10:13 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah I sure like to think there is some sort of communication between Murray and MacLean.
Just last night MacLean said that Rundblad is struggling but we’ll help him through it. So it appears to have happened suddenly.
I think it is a brutal trade, but hope for the best anyway.
Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan
Given those comments, you have to imagine MacLean was willing to part with Rundblad if push came to shove to get Turris
Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs
by Mark Parisi on Dec 17, 2011 10:28 PM EST up reply actions
That’s not what I took from it.
Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan
I don't think there was any love lost between Rundblad and MacLean
Rundblad wasn’t really help the team win games right now, and a coach’s job is to win right now. The fact that he used Rundblad so sparingly tells you that he didn’t trust the kid at all.
I do wonder if the team was interested in dealing with Rundblad. I’m thinking mostly of his veiled threats of returning to Sweden if he didn’t make the NHL squad, and his apparent inability to simplify his game or adjust to the pace of the game after playing 24 games. But when you’re dealing with prospects, you need patience, right? Why wasn’t he just sent to the AHL?
My gut feeling is that we could have traded Rundblad and a second-round pick for assets with a lot more value than Kyle Turris. My expectation would have been Turris and a second-rounder for Rundblad… I think we paid a very high price.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Dec 17, 2011 10:36 PM EST up reply actions
Maloney must be a great negotiator
Murray offered just Rundblad, Maloney said “no” and Murray caved.
Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan
It's an interesting point
Could we have gotten assets with a better value than Turris? I guess we’ll never know. I know Marc Crawford floated Brayden Schenn out there, and I definitely would have preferred him to Turris, but if Murray was dead-set on grabbing a high-end center prospect, I can’t think of any others that might have been available.
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by Mark Parisi on Dec 17, 2011 10:52 PM EST up reply actions
I've haven't been a fan of the idea of trading for Turris
I’m not convinced this is the right move at all. Turris is a better choice than some guys Murray could have gone after – and paid more for – but I really don’t think Murray needed to get Turris at all. The Sens have other guys coming up the pipe, and it feels, to me, like Rundblad would have done well going to the AHL and developing his game there.
However, since the deal is done, just have to live with it.
Time will tell
Only time will tell whether or not this trade was good for us but I cannot wait to see Turris against Buffalo on Tuesday night!!!!!
Ver y very interesting!
The possible scenarois are many. The one I really hope for:
Rundblad and Turris both shine and it ends up being a good deal for both players and organizations. But ok, Im a hippie, rarely does things work out like that.
Another thing Im hoping for: The Sens in the play-offs and Michalek is the shining star on everybodys lips and wins the Conn Smythe.
Gut Instinct
I don’t like this move. I was really excited to see Rundblad in the years to come. He has such a great shot. Even if Karlsson/Cowen are getting top line minutes, we still need offensive d-men on the powerplay. Maybe I will change my mind after seeing Turris play.
But we still do have Gonchar and Kuba, both of whom create offense on the powerplay.
by modsuperstar on Dec 17, 2011 6:12 PM EST up reply actions
I was thinking more for the future. Kuba and Gonchar don’t fit into the long term plan. There are obviously other ways of getting offence from the back-end, but I envisioned Karlsson/Cowen/Rundblad forming the defensive corp of the future.
by Barnsley Pal on Dec 17, 2011 9:07 PM EST up reply actions
Since when is Karlsson not an offensive d-man?
And by the numbers he put up last night, you might even add Cowan to that
Mark Ingram-OROY
Cam Jordan-DROY
New Orleans Saints-2012 Super Bowl Champs
TOP IS GAWD!
I never said he wasn't.
My point is we need more than one and Rundblad had the potential to fill that role for the term.
by Barnsley Pal on Dec 17, 2011 9:09 PM EST up reply actions
Cowen is actually a legit PP guy
maybe not right now but he has a helluva shot knows how to pass the puck and played lots of PP in junior….
Chara plays on the PP why can’t Cowen?
I can't help but feel this is Filatov all over again.
Having seen Rundblad play, I can see so much potential a year down the road once he is accustomed to the NHL. He is so creative. Turris has been around since 07/08 and has shown…nothing, like Filatov: a lot of speed and no finish. Sure, we have 8 d’men right now, but we won’t by Feb at the earliest. Forward wise, we have quite a few in the pipeline. I know, you can never have enough, but Rundblad for Turris, the price is too high for my liking.
I know the Filatov comparisons are inevitable, but Turris has primarily played fourth line minutes for his career
He is capable of putting up points; his time in the AHL and playoff performance has shown that.
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corey locke scores in the ahl too
i hate this trade.
Right, because no player that scores in the AHL does it in the NHL
You haven’t even seen the guy play for us yet. How can you hate the trade?
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i’m saying using the ahl as a baseline comparison for putting up points in the nhl is a moot point. and i hate this trade because i loved the potential i saw in rundblad and wholeheartedly believe that with enough time and proper coaching (in bingo with KK), he could be a stud, all-star defenseman in the next 4-5 years. what i’ve seen of turris, regardless of his “role” on phoenix, is similar to foligno — he has the pure physical ability but not the pure hockey sense to succeed. OBVIOUSLY im not a professional scout, and turris is still 21(?) so there’s an immense amount of time for him to develop still… but i feel like we gave up too much.
It sounds like you've already made up your mind
I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but Foligno is having an outstanding season. He’s on pace for 50 points.
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Guess we have seen Rundblad and can sense what he will become
whereas Turris is such an unknown. It’s hard to get around that perspective. I don’t recall having seen him play, have you Mark or anyone else? What’s the sense on him then?
by whatsinaname on Dec 17, 2011 6:38 PM EST up reply actions
I've seen him in Phoenix a little less than 20 games
Like Caden, I’m not a professional scout, so my opinion is essentially worthless.
My sense is that he’s a smooth, fast skater. He’s really good at reading the play offensively, and weak at reading it defensively. He needs to hit a weight room in the worst way—I would pay cash money to watch him and Karlsson arm wrestle. I think he can blossom in an up-ice, attacking style like the one we play, but he’s never going to be an all-around kind of guy.
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well i'm open to being proven wrong
and would be ecstatic.. i would love to have seen our 09 roster win the cup because of the likeability, but i obviously would rather an elite/contending team rather than some nice guys.
and yes foligno is having a career year… however having watched all of the games, the majority of his goals are not being scored out of pure skill and elite hockey sense, but rather hard work and sound positioning. i am not yet convinced that he can keep up the pace and surpass the 50 point mark. for his salary i’m more than content with his production — especially considering his elevated expectations over the years. i see foligno as a 35-40 point player, but i don’t see someone of that ilk in addition to a second round pick as being even value for what i envision rundblad becoming.
But do you think Rundblad was going to get that chance here
He wasn’t getting regular ice time, and unless Gonchar was traded, he wouldn’t have gotten the regular ice time next year either, from the look of things.
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two stud pairs are better than one
if you don’t HAVE to play cowen/karlsson 25-30 minutes a game, that’s much better for them in the long run. the thing is he would likely be getting 3rd most ice time out of all defenseman in 2-3 years, especially if cowen or karlsson go down with an injury. gonchar will be gone after this contract, kuba as well. phillips’ role is already diminishing, suggesting that a few seasons from now he will likely be down to third pairing minutes. free agents, sure.. but having 3 STUD dmen as a core is phenomenal and difficult to come by. he would QB the second unit PP (alfie will be gone) or even first unit alongside karlsson (cowen will DEF be 1st U PK so PM will have to manage his minutes wisely). i feel like there’s PLENTY of space for an elite 3rd defenseman on the team. in addition, if we develop all 3 of them, come contract time for rundblad and cowen, if rundblad has developed as we’d hoped and there’s no room for him on the blueline, trade when his value is at its highest. we’re not in a rush to win. better prospects will likely become available.
I had a whole post on it!
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by Mark Parisi on Dec 18, 2011 12:49 AM EST up reply actions
I know
But I was too busy to comment then. Did you official “welcome to the bandwagon!” package arrive in the mail yet?
by RogerTheShrubber on Dec 18, 2011 10:35 AM EST up reply actions
Nope, but it doesn't need to
I’m totally on board.
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So what exactly has Rundblad shown?
hes minus 11 and has 4 points in around 25ish games.We as Sens fans have seen flashes of brilliance but im sure if you asked a Coyotes fan they would say the same about Turris.
rundblad has been playing north american hockey for 3 months
turris his whole life, and in the nhl off and on for 2 full seasons. i despise turris’ attitude towards the whole contract ordeal at the start of this year. rundblad has the pure skillset and the mind to be a brilliant, elite, all-star defenseman. by 25 he will be an all-star. he just has ZERO confidence here and needs time to develop.
I'm inclined to agree with you.
My biggest concern with Murray is once he feels the team is close to contending. I think the price is too high, and guys like Rundblad are hard to find.
At the end of the day it’s just worries, and I’m sure Murray has a long term plan. Maybe he’s even got someone like Rundblad scouted.
I’m a little worried about how Rumball will be handled under Tippett. Hopefully he’s given a good opportunity.
by Pmoron on Dec 17, 2011 8:31 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
He should do all right
He’ll have to earn his opportunities because they’re fairly deep on defense, but his passing skills will be a huge asset for him in Tippet’s system.
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The most interesting point IMO
is comparing Karlsson 2009 to Rundblad similar number through 20+ games went down to the AHL for half a season got better a year later he’s in an ASG in his sophomore season
For the record, Karlsson played only 12 games in Binghamton, not half a season.
Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan
Gut reaction
My gut reaction was I hate giving up Rundblad, but looking at the situation, the Sens are now the second organization that felt he was worth flipping for something else. Not to say there is anything wrong with his game, but the fact the Blues felt he was expendable does say something, I’m just not sure what.
Something had to give with the Sens roster as it existed to this point. If everyone is healthy we had 8 d-men. Rundblad was going to Bingo sooner rather than later, so this move did solve a problem for us. And given we are in the midst of a rebuild, this move also makes us more fluid to bring up another d-man in case of injury and see how they handle the NHL. It creates a logjam at forward now, but on the plus side, we know Daugavins is NHL ready if we are forced to send him down, so when there is an injury, we’re covered.
the blues gave him up before he exploded last year in the SEL
when they traded him he was promising, but not best defenseman in the sel a year later promising
Gave up too much
BM rolled the dice in an attempt to make us a better team now, which makes me think he thinks we’re good enough to end the rebuild and try to win now. I think he overpaid big time, as this team has plenty of third liners.
Generally players who don’t reach their potential, keep doing that when they change teams. I hope I’m wrong and that Turris is going to be the player that they hoped he’d be, but to give up a previous first round guy pick and a second round pick seems like alot.
When looking at this deal at least we’re getting something back. Looking back at trades of prospects like Brooks Laich and Tim Gleason we didn’t much return long term on those deals and those guys turned into viable, long term NHL players. Turris definitely has an opportunity to be a good player in the league, so maybe a change of scenery may pan out.
by modsuperstar on Dec 17, 2011 6:29 PM EST up reply actions
"attempt to make us a better team now"
How old is Turris, 21? Gimme a break. This is most definitely a deal for the future.
It’s not like we’re trading prospects for veteran rental players anymore (I hated those moves)_.
We’re pretty good on D going forward, but we’re lacking top 6 forwards, especially top 6 centres…
So I say it’s a good gamble. Like going all in with a full house.
Full house?
I’d say it’s more like going all in on two pair with the river still to come.
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Hmm...
How bout going all in on two pair, ace high and the river still to come?
Ace high might be a bit much
Turris hasn’t proven much yet.
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Ok fine.
Going all in on two pair + rag, on the button, heads up?
(Or whatever your definition of a good gamble is…)
It would in heads up if it were pre-flop
But anyway, I don’t know that I accept that this is a good gamble. To me it’s just a gamble. Murray gave away a hell of a piece in Rundblad.
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Trading potential offensive D (where you are pretty good) for potential top six centre (where you are very weak) = good gamble in my books.
Turris was higher profile, higher touted, higher pick, so the second rounder makes it even.
If Turris fails to contribute much as a 2nd line centre over the length of the contract Murray loses, but he’s got two years at a fairly low salary to prove himself.
See, I see it as potential for potential
I agree that a top center is worth more than a top offensive defenseman, but right now neither has done much, and Rundblad has a much shorter resume.
The payoff for Murray could be much higher than for Maloney, but a high payout doesn’t necessarily make the gamble a good one.
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Problem is
we’ve got offensive D to spare today, but Gonch will be gone before the rebuild is complete. As we’ve seen the powerplay with two elite offensive D is great. Maybe Murray is banking on Cowen showing more offense in the future like he did before he made the NHL.
Wiercoch and Lee both have good offensive potential (could be a second PP paring after Karlsson and Cowen).
The biggest hole in the lineup IMHO was second line center.
Let’s hope Turris can fill it!
I don't think Lee has much offensive potential anymore
He’s asserted himself as a capable NHL defender because he’s moved away from trying to play an offensive style, and accepted that he’s better off playing defensively.
As for Wiercioch, it’s possible his career is over, albeit unlikely. Still, he hasn’t shown himself to be an NHL-level player yet. Time will tell on that front, too, but you can’t count your chickens before they hatch.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Dec 18, 2011 2:53 PM EST up reply actions
At least there are a few good eggs that could still hatch on D!
What do we have for top real six centers that can play now? Jason Spezza. Da Costa had a big audition and hasn’t seemed up to it. Regin has been dissapointing, and Foligno was ok, but I think much better suited to the power forward/wing.
Z-Bad could come in next year, which would make things interesting, but I think Turris improves our depth chart on centre considerably.
In a year or two we could have:
- Spezza > Turris > Z-Bad > Smith.
Think of the last few teams that have won the cup… all had very good depth at centre.
- Krejci > Bergeron > Kelly/Seguin
- Toews > Bolland > Madden
- Crosby > Malkin > Staal
- Datsyuk > Hudler > Filppula
- Getzlaf > Mcdonald > Niedermayer > Pahlsson
Why did the Sens contend in 07? Largely because of depth on center:
- Spezza > Fisher > Comrie > Kelly > Vermette
I wouldn’t say either of Da Costa or Regin have been disappointing yet. Regin has had a lot of injuries, but he scored 29 points in the NHL as a rookie; that’s pretty friggin’ good. He’s doing well this year, and if he can get over the injuries and get a few seasons played, he’ll be a fine centreman.
Da Costa’s in his first pro season, so I can’t say what he might be. His vision and playmaking abilities are undeniable, though. He may, in fact, look pretty good alongside Turris, if Da Costa can transition to the wing; Turris looks like a shooter, so Da Costa would set him up all over the place.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Dec 18, 2011 4:19 PM EST up reply actions
Regin’s injuries have been the biggest disappointment (though not nearly as disappointing as Leclair…). And though he has put up some points, I’m still not convinced that he is top six pedigree. Da Costa could be the next Savard… for better AND worse. Either could still become regular 2nd line centre, but I think there’s more chance neither will. And if the Paulrus was pushing for this deal, he was likely not too confident in either.
The beauty of having this kind of depth on centre, is as you point out, centre’s can often move to the wing, whereas it’s hard to turn a winger into a centre. Who knows, Turris could even end up on the wing at some point…
This move gives us more valuable depth on centre, and more options for forming a strong top six.
There's a "worse" to having the next Marc Savard?
Are we talking about the same guy who’s had two 90+ point seasons? Because I’d love to have the next Savard in tow.
As for Regin’s injuries, it’s tough to hold them against him—I’m sure he’s even more disappointed about them than you are. Daniel Alfredsson battled a lot of injuries early in his career, too, and he’s turned out alright.
Anyway, I’m not saying Da Costa is the next Savard or Regin is the next Alfredsson. I guess we’re saying the same thing: There are more choices now, and more fallbacks in case some things don’t work out.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Dec 18, 2011 9:49 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah… I can’t really see Da Costa getting 90 points in a season, but he could be a good, smallish playmaker centre for a few years. His career could also be short from getting pounded on. Bottom line: he hasn’t proven up to the task yet, but he does add depth on centre which is good.
I’m certainly not holding Regin’s injuries against him, and maybe he’ll still have a great career. He has shown some flashes of greatness, but even when healthy he’s been pretty inconsistent. Like Da Costa he’s a bit of a long shot IMHO to become a solid 2nd line centre on a contending team.
All I’m saying is that it’s always a gamble when you draft, sign, or trade for a player in the NHL. So many factors. So many variables. Turris could be a disappointment. Da Costa could be the next Savard. Regin might never get injured again.
Given the depth on D, and the lack of top 6 forward depth (especially on centre), picking up Turris, despite the cost, was a good gamble in my opinion.
On that I’ll rest my case. It’s up to Turris now to prove his worth.
Despite my misgivings, here's hoping Turris comes in
and proves BM a genius.
Do you think I caused this trade by naming Rundblad a Sens Zero last night?
Co-manager, Silver Seven
First the all-star voting and now this!
Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan
I was going to include that in the FAQ
Did Darren ruin Rundblad’s reputation by calling him a zero?
Yes. Yes, he did.
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haha, that would've been hilarious.
“28 of 29 GMs polled stated that Rundblad’s stock went down immediately following the Zero designation.”
Co-manager, Silver Seven
Rundblad is a net +2 on the Hero-Zero count
He stands pretty much in the center of the team list, but then some players like Zibby and Filatov are lower with no possibility of improvement. I think he killed himself…
On a lighter note
I am glad I didn’t do the “Magic Number Seven” for “Drago” trade that Mark proposed.
Rundblad is gone and I’d be stuck calling Lehner that awful name.
Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan
I think there are a few takeaways here
1) No player I have nicknamed has been traded.
2) I give better nicknames.
3) Don’t bet against me, because you’ll lose horribly.
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What about on a personal level?
I get that hockey players are supposed to be prepared to get traded on a moment’s notice and such, and they should temper themselves to lose teammates… but weren’t Karlsson and Rundblad pseudo-BFFs? I hope Karlsson doesn’t get sour over this.
Especially with team Sweden waiting to come over and join the Sens in the near future (Petersson, Ziba, Silferberg) I hope we’re not trading away what could’ve proven to be a strong team dynamic.
Ive thought this over too but Karlsson was never really that good friends with him
And it seems to me that Karl is on of the more chirpier guys on the team so it seems hes cool with the guys he has as friends minus Rundblad. But I think a Spezza Turris Foligno and Cowen dynamic might blossom
Which is weird
Because the first thing I ever heard about Rundblad was how awesome he and Karlsson were together on the swedish jr national (or some other national) team.
Rundblad reaction
Poor guy, he sounds sad. I guess I would be too if I was sent to Phoenix.
Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan
Have you ever actually been to Phoenix?
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No. But I wouldn’t like such a climate.
Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan
I think you'd be surprised
It’s beautiful this time of year
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I just meant it doesn’t seem like a good environment to play hockey for him.
Small crowds, uncertain future for the franchise and plus the coach seems very conservative for a player who takes a lot of risks.
Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan
I don't see those as realistic concerns
Crowd size won’t affect his development , and he’ll be playing hockey whether the team stays or moves. Also, Tippet is not conservative per se, just structured. Rundblad should be fine there. It’s a great landing spot for someone with his skillset.
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I think smaller crowd sizes might help his development, to be honest.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Dec 17, 2011 10:40 PM EST up reply actions
I wouldn't be
Phoenix sounds like a great place to live. Terrific real estate prices, good weather, very little pressure, and cacti all over the place.
On the other hand, he might have to move back to Canada in little time, if the Coyotes can’t solve their ownership issues.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Dec 17, 2011 10:39 PM EST up reply actions
It's a strip mall wasteland in my experience.
by sensory_experience on Dec 18, 2011 12:53 AM EST up reply actions
Sounds a lot like Ottawa
I like Ottawa.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Dec 18, 2011 2:54 PM EST up reply actions
Ahem
I think you’re thinking of kanata.
by RogerTheShrubber on Dec 18, 2011 5:15 PM EST up reply actions
You're right
Well, really all of suburban Ottawa. Ottawa’s downtown is nice, if you’re there at the right times.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Dec 18, 2011 9:50 PM EST up reply actions
Have you been to Phoenix?
It is not like Ottawa. Every city has strip malls, but that’s not what I’m talking about.
Apologies to .. Phoenicians?
by sensory_experience on Dec 18, 2011 5:32 PM EST up reply actions
Negotiated down, depending on your perspective
I think I’ve got higher expectations for Rundblad than I do for Zibanejad.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Dec 17, 2011 10:41 PM EST up reply actions
Serious Question.
What is Turris’ nickname?
Turry? Kylie?
http://www.azcentral.com/sports/coyotes/articles/2009/01/14/20090114coyotes-nicknames.html
Apparently Screetch?
I prefer Turkey
But that’s a good name.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Dec 17, 2011 10:41 PM EST up reply actions
Apparently they wanted zibanejad
I’m happy they declined that!
Yeah did he say Zibaneand AND a 1st?
Seems Murray negotiated down from clinically insane at least. ;)
Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan
Mika Z with 1st rounder was obviously a fishing expedition by Phoenix.
by whatsinaname on Dec 17, 2011 9:14 PM EST up reply actions
I just asked him on twitter
He said they wanted one of Zibanejad and 1st rounder.
Zibanejad + 2nd rounder instead of Rundblad + 2nd rounder is about equivalent I think.
Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan
Who did you ask?
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by Peter Raaymakers on Dec 17, 2011 10:42 PM EST up reply actions
Yep
Just like with any trade. You start as high as you can and hope they’re dumb enough to take it.
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Well, it wasn't a realistic asking price & Phoenix knew it.
by whatsinaname on Dec 17, 2011 9:24 PM EST up reply actions
Don't forget, they were asking for one of the two, not both
It’s not outrageous.
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My "reply" is not working
What’s realistic depends on your needs and what you are willing to pay for it. Burke felt 2 1st rounders for Kessel was reasonable because he wanted a proven scorer immediately and not 2-3 years from then and even then, you didn’t know what you would get in the drafts. So, I don’t think Burke was being stupid.
I really enjoy watching Toronto lose, especially at the ACC.
Am I a bad person?
Nothing wrong with some healthy schadenfreude.
And to hate the leafs is human. To watch them lose at home – divine.
by RogerTheShrubber on Dec 18, 2011 5:18 PM EST up reply actions
I got to see the Sens beat the Leafs at the ACC in November. Wouldn’t say divine… But it was VERY satisfying. Especially after the hockey hall of fame presentation and the “Dougie” chants. Have to say I shuddered a few times when Nieuwendyk was honoured… …flashbacks to Lalime’s infamous game seven meltdown in ’04.
really hated this trade at first
but looking at it now, with confidence in our scouting staff, i think this is probably going to be a good trade. Looking at most of the more dominant teams in the nhl the last few years (pittsburgh, boston, vancouver, etc), being strong down the middle is of upmost importance. it seems apparent that it is difficult to lock up an elite young centre (see columbus, toronto, montreal), so i will applaud murray for making this move. Hope the amateur scouting prowess carries over to their pro scouts. I would love to see spezz, turris, and zibanejad doing their best crosby, malkin, staal or kreijci, bergeron, seguin impression.
Our junior scouting is good - pro scouting not so much
Can’t really think of a team we made a good trade for a pro player. Maybe Michalek in hindsight I suppose.
Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan
Yeah Michalek was the guy Ottawa wanted in that trade.
But we had to take Cheechoo as a salary dump.
It's mostly our European scouting that's good
We’ve drafted on North American-born top-line player: Jason Spezza. And that was a no-brainer. Any other truly talented player we’ve ever drafted has been a European.
Seriously, who’s the best North American forward the Sens have ever drafted, excluding Spezza? Maybe Vermette? Brooks Laich?
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by Peter Raaymakers on Dec 17, 2011 10:47 PM EST up reply actions
Z. Smith
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by Mark Parisi on Dec 17, 2011 10:53 PM EST up reply actions
I looked
The top North American picks must be:
Antoinne Vermette, Chris Phillips, Mike Fisher, Chris Kelly, Brooks Laich and Brian Elliot ( the way he can play and plays now, hes a 9th rounder, thats good scouting (or lottery)).
Yeah, I specified forwards
So it’s between Vermette, Fisher, Laich, and Kelly. Not a great resume.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Dec 18, 2011 2:55 PM EST up reply actions
Different scouting teams of course.
Our scouting team is much better than what it once was.
by RogerTheShrubber on Dec 18, 2011 5:19 PM EST up reply actions
We hope so
I mean… we had some pretty good late-round selections in years past, which probably had a lot to do with our good scouting. The thing is, our scouts’ have always seemed to be strongest with European leagues. I’m not sure why, maybe it’s just lucky that we’ve had really good European scouts or maybe it’s because other teams haven’t invested as much into European leagues, but that’s been our bread and butter for the first 20 years of this franchise.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Dec 18, 2011 9:51 PM EST up reply actions
I'll have to see Turris play to determine if he's worth it.
But I’m wondering what this means for Da Costa and Regin. Will they move to the wings?
I don't think he's too small
At least he won’t always be too small. He’s unlikely to grow much in height, but a good summer in the gym will help him bulk up. I think his skill set (playmaker, defensively responsible, not a grinder in the corners) is a lot more suited to centre than the wing.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Dec 17, 2011 10:49 PM EST up reply actions
I have to think they're going to emerge as trade bait
Da Costa will probably spend the rest of the year in Bingo, which is only good news for his development.
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by Mark Parisi on Dec 17, 2011 10:24 PM EST up reply actions
If they're not good enough to make it as third-liners in Ottawa...
Who would be interested in acquiring them via trade?
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by Peter Raaymakers on Dec 17, 2011 10:50 PM EST up reply actions
Da Costa was highly coveted coming out of school
And hey, we just traded for Turris based on perceived potential. A good year in the AHL and lingering college hype might be enough to give Da Costa some real value.
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by Mark Parisi on Dec 17, 2011 10:54 PM EST up reply actions
But Turris' value is high because he was once a third overall pick
Da Costa wasn’t even drafted. You’d like to think that relatively meaningless label isn’t relevant to the Sens’ GM, but they are. The label is pretty much the only reason the Sens acquired Filatov, after all.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Dec 17, 2011 10:57 PM EST up reply actions
That and the fact he only cost a 3rd rounder
But i dont think he’d give up David Rundblad just because Turris is a 3rd pick. He mus’tve seen something in Turris
I wonder what matters more, the label or the hype?
In my head, they’re interchangeable. I wonder if most GMs feel that way?
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by Mark Parisi on Dec 17, 2011 11:08 PM EST up reply actions
Well, I am really looking forward to the Tuesday game now
Turris is gonna score a couple of goals right?
Did anyone else bother to see that Kyle Turris has the most points per ice time on PHX?
Even more than Doan!
That's against third and fourth line players, though
It will interesting to see what he does against better competition.
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by Mark Parisi on Dec 17, 2011 10:25 PM EST up reply actions
But thats why its so interesting 3rd and 4th liners are supposed to be the shutdown lines.
Look no further than our own Z.Smith line. I think im giving him credit where credit is due
I don't know
We’ll see what happens when he’s not playing against pairings that are comparable to Lee-Carkner.
He has the speed to beat more than a few defensemen, but it’s “prove it” time for him.
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by Mark Parisi on Dec 17, 2011 10:37 PM EST up reply actions
What are you looking at? Link?
All I see is a guy who has been hyped because he tore up tier 2 in BC playing 6 games this year with 0 points (per hockedb.com)
Not a fan
I really liked Rundblad. We saw some of what he can do offensively, and it was incredible. But more than that, he was physically solid, and wasn’t afraid to hit guys. That’s something that would make him a very good second-pairing defenceman, and if his development went well, a top-line pairing isn’t far off at all. He was the best defenceman in the SEL last season, and, although the SEL is far from the NHL, that’s pretty freakin’ impressive for a 19-year-old. His development has been slow this season, but we’ve got to expect some difficulty with the adjustment; Karlsson, it should be noted, started slowly in his career, too, and spent a few weeks in the AHL as a rookie. I expected Rundblad to be given the same opportunities before the organization gave up on him.
As for Turris, I hope he can live up to the potential he’s been said to have, but he certainly hasn’t shown much to date. He had some absolutely incredible numbers when he was drafted, but those were in the BCHL, a level below where most Canadian draftees are usually selected, so you can expect his offence to have been inflated. Since then, he hasn’t been point-per-game at any level; he almost was in college, but hasn’t come close in the AHL or NHL. I’m sure he has good skill, but he’s not demonstrated that it’s to the level that has been expected of him from draft day. Compare him to even Stéphane Da Costa, who’s the same age and has been more impressive at the NHL and AHL levels both (he’s point-per-game right now for Binghamton). The comparisons with Filatov are a stretch, but Turris does not look like a player deserving of the third-overall selection.
I suppose my realistic projection for Rundblad is an Andrej Meszaros-type player, but with better offence and slightly less physicality and defensive awareness than Meszaros. (More like Meszaros when he was with the Senators.) That’s not exactly the kind of player you refuse to trade, but right now Turris looks like nothing but a bust. That’s probably not fair, and it’s far too early to label him a bust for good, but he’s looked like one so far.
I hope the trade works out, because I’d love to see the Senators with a legitimately dangerous one-two punch down the middle, but it seems pretty risky right now. We traded a defenceman who was almost sure to become a good player in this league for a centreman who may become a great player in this league, but could just as likely be a total bust.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Dec 17, 2011 10:32 PM EST reply actions
I think one part you're missing is we didnt give up on him
Bryan Murray knew exactly how good David Rundblad could become he even said so. Yet he still traded him. If Bryan Murray knew how good Rundblad would become and consulted with his scouts. The only reason you trade a player with that much potential knowingly is when you know the other players going to be better
Well, by my definition, we did give up on him
Bryan Murray obviously doesn’t know exactly how good David Rundblad can be, because if he had the powers of precognition, he wouldn’t have made so many terrible trades and signings in his time here.
Murray thinks he knows how good Rundblad and Turris will both be, and thinks he knows Turris will end up being better than Rundblad. At the moment, I don’t see much reason for this belief, but I’m not the professional general manager, so… I guess we’ll see what happens.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Dec 17, 2011 10:55 PM EST up reply actions
Turris fills a CURRENT need
Rundblad was not having a positive impact on the team right now, and I think the potential of Turris coming to the team and solidifying the second line to make it more of a threat does a lot in the short term.
I THOUGHT WE WERE REBUILDING???!?! As in, in the process of being shitty to get some better players and develop the prospects we already have. Apparently not.
I find it interesting that Murray was talking about how good Rundblad could have been for the team next year and 3 years away. From that comment alone, it sounds like his idea of a rebuild is a 1 year thing. If we were to rebuild in the mold of Pittsburgh, Washington and Chicago, we would put up with some years of atrocious records in order to stock up some good players in the draft.
Is Turris going to help our NHL club in the short term more than Rundblad would have? Yes.
Worst comes worst, he’ll get some time in the minors, develop some chemistry with Filatov ( if he reports) and then we bring both of them up next year and they’ll wreck the league.
Youre the one with that whole now that Turris is signed... thing!
I thought you atleast would be behind this move! And Turris is 22 he does help long term
hahaha but it was Rundblad!!!
I’m puzzled as to why we didn’t put Rundblad in the minors and give him a chance as a top pairing defenceman in the AHL.
I am happy we got Turris, and you’re right, he has the potential to do great things in the long term. I would have rathered t we trade away one of our other centres though, because now we have a backlog of top 2 line centres in the pipeline. DaCosta, Regin, Turris and ZIba (next year) are all fighting for one spot, so I figure one of them will be gone in the next year or so.
I found Murray's comments very odd
And, to be honest, a little concerning. At the outset of the Senate Reform last season, fans seemed fine with taking several years to rebuild, as long as the team had some exciting games and dynamic young players to watch in the process. If Murray’s thinking the rebuild will be less than three years, he’s pretty far off, I think.
I do wonder if lower-than-anticipated ticket sales have increased the urgency in the rebuild. Fans can continue to support the team through the rebuild away from the rink, but if we’re not buying tickets, that support means little to ownership.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Dec 17, 2011 11:31 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t know how many tickets we’ve given away for free, but we are 7th in attendance this season.
I don’t think returning to contention (not just playoffs) in 3 years is unrealistic, it can happen. But this is a big and frankly unnecessary risk that he just took.
Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan
There have been some huge sales on tickets this season, and I think a lot have been given away, too.
But I’m very surprised by those numbers, I wasn’t expecting it to be that high.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Dec 18, 2011 12:05 AM EST up reply actions
I totally agree with you Adnan.
And it’s unrelated to meatballs or bowel movements for me.
by RogerTheShrubber on Dec 18, 2011 10:30 AM EST up reply actions
This was a great Trade
Centre’s are coveted. We’re going to develop Turris into a faster, more defensive Spezza. Think of the Penguins who have so much depth at centre. Were going to have Spezza, Turris, Zibby and Smith down the centre. Thats so beast. Not to mention Karlsson and Cowen on the back end and Swedish Patrick Roy in net (Lehner). The future is bright and Turris will even be able to replace Spezza when he’s gone so we have a future first line centre as well. Rundblad was good but I dont think we needed another Karlsson. We cant afford to pay two Karlssons. The draft is going to produce more defensive prospects if we dont have enough in the BSens already. And I would love to see Filatov setting up Turris in the future.
Turris has perhaps the weirdest shot I've ever seen
There’s hardly anything in the way of backswing, he just flings the puck at the net—but still manages to get pretty good speed on his shots. They’re sneaky, too, because or that quickness.
Seeing that highlight reel of his goals makes me more accepting of this trade, but, as has been said hundreds of times already, time will tell with this trade.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Dec 17, 2011 11:27 PM EST reply actions
Heatley with speed?
The highlights of all of his goals make him look like a sniper haha
Heatley had a huge wind-up
He pretty much had his stick above his head everywhere he went on the ice, waiting for a pass. Turris’ stick blade doesn’t seem to leave the ice at all.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Dec 18, 2011 12:06 AM EST up reply actions
Phoenix's system limited Turris' offensive potential
Give him a chance, he’s like spezza, (not as experienced by any means) but similar playing style except a bit faster, in phoenix’s system spezza wouldn’t light it up either, systems such as that make offensive players struggle. With ottawa’s more open offensive style turris should flourish tho, and lets be honest none of the d men on ottawa’s roster right now other than rundbland who was struggling deserves to be sent down or benched and with players such as borweicki and wiercoch (sorry about the spelling) coming up it made him expendable for now as our real need right now is for offence and some better goaltending.. Good move, Theres a reason why 8-10 teams wanted Turris, steep price to pay but i definately believe it will pay off and is a good move for the team right now. Also i’m glad murray didn’t give up the first for this year or zibanejad like phoenix wanted
Do we really know that?
Everyone talks about Rundblands Potential but no one take into consideration Turris’ which i think is better . Sorry but the team is weak on forwards right now and all rundbland was going to do was be sent down or a healthy scratch for the rest of the season so this is a good trade for NOW and i guess we’ll see how it pans out. They traded a top prospect for a top prospect sure the pick was extra but with the demand Turris was recieving they prob had to give it to get the deal done. My thoughts are that all you guys That are knocking the guy will look stupid by the end of the season (Give him a bit to settle in) and he’ll turn into a fan fav. Lets not forget how alot of you idiot fans have been wanting to trade spezza every year , and look how he’s playing this year.. This reminds me of after the 2010 draft when i made a fanpost (on a diff acc) after the the drafty about what a steal mark stone was (as i am a perennial wheatkings season ticket holder) and everyone on here knocked me about it saying he’ll never make the nhl, well a hundred point season last season and averaging 2 pts a game this year so suck it haters.. all you guys that were knocking this guy then are loving him and excited about him now that hes known (and this is why half the sens fans are idiots, they jump the gun way too soon)
Let's refrain from calling those who disagree with us idiots, okay?
Passion is welcome, but disrespect is not.
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Well, I'm angry
I don’t think this was a good move. Murray should not have traded for Turris, I think, at any price – although Runblad and a 2nd is better than what he might have paid. However, the deal’s done.
The other consolation is that Turris, at least, is a young guy, and Ottawa has a few years of his being a restricted free agent, so that’s something. He might prove to be a key piece in the team’s long-term plans.
Nevertheless, I have the distinct feeling that Bryan Murray is attempting to hasten the rebuilding process, perhaps to the detriment of the team’s long-term prospects. He’s got two-and-a-bit years left on his contract as GM, what gives?
This feels to me like an awful risk.
That risk turned out perfectly, though
Vader’s plan worked. Tarkin is the one that got the small moon blown up.
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by Mark Parisi on Dec 18, 2011 12:51 AM EST up reply actions
True
But Murray is Vader AND Tarkin in this one. Uh, I think.
Hopefully Murray’s gamble is more like the homing beacon rather than overestimating their chances. If worst comes to worst, well… oh, wait, that one worked out, too.
Murray is Vader
MacLean is Tarkin. If Turris blows up, it’s MacLean that pays the price.
Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs
Why is Murray making a "win now" move?
Surely Murray realizes this group isn’t going to a finals and I’m pretty sure Murray himself realizes he’s not winning a Cup here.
I’m upset with this trade.
We were told this is about the future, about conserving assets and being PATIENT.
I haven’t heard a lot of fans screaming for trades, coaching changes or so on.
People have (generally) bought in.
What was the harm in keeping Rundblad? Why give him AND a 2nd for a player that’s unhappy where he is and on the outs anyways? This kind of player should not be garnering this kind of price, even if he is a first rounder. I mean, I liked Turris in the World Juniors and all but we’ve already got one “enigmatic” player in Fiatov and now we get him?
Also, to those that say this will make or break Murray or that people will call for his head, please. The local media will protect him like they always do and Murray will be here as long as HE wants, no matter the results on the ice.
by Quizzical Quorum on Dec 18, 2011 2:15 AM EST reply actions
This isnt just a win now move
Hes 22 so if he wins now and wins later whats the harm in that?
But we gave up two prospects.
Turris is an unknown. He’s only produced in the British COlumbia Hockey League and sat out on a team that had him under contract and that he was obligated to play for. You can make the case that Rundblad wasn’t enamored with playing in the AHL but he did as was told.
So basically, this is antoher reclamation project when we could have just kept assets (defensive depth is GOOD) and brought out own person through the draft and system.
This smacks of Murray making a push for the playoffs and sacrificing the future to do so.
by Quizzical Quorum on Dec 18, 2011 11:35 AM EST up reply actions
He never sat out with a team that had him under contract
He held out during contract negotiations, which is entirely within his rights. Daniel Alfredsson once did the same thing. Many young players do. They have little choice, as restricted free agents, so their only bargaining device is a holdout.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Dec 18, 2011 2:59 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think that's fair at all
Peter is NOT an apologist. He’s probably the most objective writer on S7S.
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I think you’re too biased to say which of the writers here is objective.
Co-manager, Silver Seven
by DarrenM on Dec 18, 2011 6:33 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
rec'd
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by Peter Raaymakers on Dec 18, 2011 9:52 PM EST up reply actions
I’m not sure being a Turris-apologist is as strong an accusation as this defense would indicate.
by RogerTheShrubber on Dec 18, 2011 11:16 PM EST up reply actions
It's the truth.
Call it what you want, but holding out is completely different for a player under contract than one negotiating a contract. If you don’t see the difference there, then there’s not much I can say, really.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Dec 18, 2011 9:54 PM EST up reply actions
I'm fine with this deal if...
We draft a stud Dman this draft! I would love to see Ceci in a sens jersey!!
by fridgefullofmeat on Dec 18, 2011 2:26 AM EST reply actions
Worst part of the deal?
Turris is from Burnaby. I was born and raised in Burnaby, and I can say that nothing, and no one good ever came out of that place. NOTHING.
by Pmoron on Dec 18, 2011 2:35 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Joe Sakic?
(not sure if you are sarcastic :P)
Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan
Wasn't Ryan Nugent-Hopkins raised there?
Was that sarcasm?
Sarcasm and self depreciation.
My jokes have it all.
by Pmoron on Dec 18, 2011 12:15 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
First reaction was unease
The jerk reaction was that BM gave up on Rundblad to early, and that Turris has had enough time in the league to show he’s not going to be elite.
BM must have thought about this a lot though. I’m (fingers crossed) hoping that his guys scouted him a lot and McLean likes the fit. For me, that’s the make or break. If his play improves in Ottawa, then it will be a good trade.
Maybe he shouldn’t have been a 3rd overall pick but if he can play close to that level, those are the kind of guys you can’t usually pick up on the free market and that ottawa rarely has a high pick to draft themselves.
If he ends up being a solid 2nd line C with some contribution on special teams it will be a great answer to the logjam of 3rd line C’s we’re trying to get into that 2nd line role. Maybe Zbad will get there one day, but I’m sure if they both play well McLean will find room for them both in the top 6.
One overlooked positive here is that I think I heard or read that he’s pretty good in the shootout, which has always been a weak point for the Sens.
Partying with Karlsson, Karlsson's future Wifey and Rundblad at Junxtion
ot even kidding I was partying with Rundblad and Karlsson tonight having some drinks at Junction. When I found out about the trade I didn’t even want to tell him. seriously I was pretty much crying all the way home. Rundblad is (frank)n awesome. He was an awesome kid and I was just trying to pick up some broads with him. He just had to take some time time to put i together. If we have Turris and he doesnt pull it together I dont even know what to say about Murray.???? I would love to party with them again. Karlsson’s GF is awesome. But I am seriously hurt with the Runblad trade. I thought he was going to be with us for a long time. If Turris doesn’t pan out Murray can (frank) right off seriously. I can’t even make a real assumption right because David was actually a friend and I dont know what to say right now.
I am real emotional right now because I am drunk as hell!!!! But I was drinking with Karlsson and Rundblad and I was trying to pick up some girls with him (Rundblad) lol. He took my black dress shirt and wore it because he thought it was better than his red and black/beige Christmas sweater that he was wearing lol. I got my shirt back lol but then I believe that he found out he got traded and was not such a happy camper with the girl that we were trying to pick up lol and I was getting kicked out by the bouncers for nothing and I was pissed. EK’s gf was awesome trying to resolve the situation but DR didnt know how to handle it and I wished him good luck and too off while basically crying the whole way home lol.
by senators4life on Dec 18, 2011 4:24 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
kind of a hater
Im a real hater about this trade but hopefully Rundblad can pull it together in Phoenix which will be moved at the end of the year and if Turris can play well for the Sens i would be extatic. I wish Runblad the best of luck. he was sweet to party with and pick up girls obviously lol. Girls are just dumb when you mention that a guy is an NHL player lol but tonight what sweet and Karlsson’s gf is actually pretty cool too. I usually think that early marriages are shitty but she is really cool and Karlsson was just all over the place tonight with dance music/dance music just taking the whole show. /rg
i really hope that we don't have to play Rundblad 6 times a year if Phoenix becomes Quebec City
if he’s in Kansas and we play him 2 times a year, it won’t be that bad :p
Good Trade
Rundblad did not set the world on fire the way everyone wanted to. Brian Lee looked better in his first 20 games with the Sens than Rundblad did. Now we have a legit top 6 guy and some flexability with our forwards. I don’t have faith that Regin will ever pan out and now we can kiss him off at the end of his contract when DaCosta improves.
So I finally get an opportunity to comment on this trade!
At first, I was unhappy. Admittedly I don’t know much about Turris. All I know is his “bust” status, his potential and his holdout. The first thing I thought of was “NOT AGAIN! Another guy who thinks he’s better than the effort he want to put in comes to Ottawa!”.
Then I thought about it and felt that was unfair towards Turris. So I’m giving him the benefit of the doubt. I’m still uneasy about this whole thing. But reading this analysis and comments that tell me that there is defensive depth in this draft made it easier. Maybe MacLean didn’t feel they needed 2 Karlsson’s on the team? It oy can never go wrong with having depth. In this case defense was sacrificied for offense. I’m fine with that for now.
by Los Blancos Chicca on Dec 18, 2011 1:49 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I think MacLean might have felt that they needed a second-line center MORE than they needed two Karlssons
Because frankly, players like Karlsson don’t come along every day.
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Why are people saying this is a "now" move
Or saying that at least we got a “legit” top 6 forward back?
What has Turris done to show he is a top 6 forward in the NHL? My God I hope we don’t just gift this kid our 2nd line center spot. Foligno looked just fine in there, better than fine in fact. I really don’t get this trade and quite frankly it pisses me off.
Rundblad has more poise at 20 than most veteran NHLers and at times now it has hurt him because he isn’t making the quick pass but I believe that has more to do with adjusting to the play over here than anything else. Guys are on him quicker than in the SEL and the forecheck is different…if you recall Karlsson didn’t look nearly as fast and quick in his first half season with the team as he did the latter half (plus his short AHL stint). Rundblad also has some sick hands and moves…not to mention he doesn’t mind being physical and I think given more time he would be making some ferocious open ice hits.
I also don’t believe that a 2nd line center is more valuable than a steady, all around, offensively gifted Dman who clearly has show he has potential to be a first pairning guy…Turris has had time to develop and hasnt’ produced in the NHL yet. Systems be damned, talent shines through and with a couple extra years of experience in the NHL I say Rundblad will be far superior to Turris, not to mention we have plenty of guys with his current point total expectations.
This stinks and to throw in a 2nd round pick when we should still be stockpiling as many as those as we can get is lunacy. I hate this deal because of who is involved and Murray’s history of trades with the Sens makes me feel even worse.
So, you'd value Paul Martin over Evgeni Malkin?
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Haha
Evgeni Malkin is only a 2nd line centre on one team. He’s a generational talent.
Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan
No coincidence that I picked the example that served me best :)
But I do think that it illustrates the silliness of the statement.
Other possible examples: Joe Corvo over Patrice Begreron in Boston, Kyle Quincy over Paul Stasny in Colorado, Brad Stuart over Valtteri Filppula in Detroit, Rob Scuderi over Mike Richards in LA, Marc-Eduoard Vlasic over Logan Couture in San Jose, Dan Hamhuis over Ryan Kesler in Vancouver.
Now, I’m not claiming Turris will be any of those players. But positionally, this is the argument OD99 is making. It’s really hard to buy in to that line of thinking with so many real world examples.
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by Mark Parisi on Dec 19, 2011 10:58 AM EST up reply actions
Mark, I am not buying your argument
There are a lot of 3rd defencemen that I would happily accept in return for Peter Regin or Nick Foligno.
I think it is totally arbitrary whether a 2nd pairing defenceman is more valuable that a 2nd line centre. It depends completely on the team and their depth at each position.
When Ottawa had Phillips and Chara as their 2nd defensive pairing, a lot of teams would have traded their second line centre to get one of those guys. Same for the Blackhawks with Keith, Seabrook and Barker.
Lastly, given Crosby´s unfortunate condition Malkin is clearly Pittsburgh´s #1 centre these days.
I think you're not buying it because you're focusing on players instead of positions
I would rather have Rundblad than either Regin or Foligno, for example. And I think you’re completely right that it depends on team and positional depth.
But taking names out of it, would you not agree that a highly skilled second line center is more valuable to an organization than a highly skilled second-pairing defenseman? Just in terms of production and ice time, I feel one is much more likely to contribute to team success than the other.
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by Mark Parisi on Dec 19, 2011 11:22 AM EST up reply actions
You are using name players to strengthen your point
And slightly altered what I said to make the leap even more dramatic. I said a steady, all around, offensively gifted Dman who clearly has show he has potential to be a first pairing guy.
I could easily throw up a bunch of names that would show D over #2 center.
My point is that consistent play and championships are built from the goalie out and you need to have top level D to compete night in and night out. The Sens haven’t had a top end scoring 2nd line center since I can remember yet with a stable of Chara, Redden, Philips, Volchenkov plus some thow ins they were high in the standings and and made a few nice runs.
Now, the Sens also had some elite wingers so the center position wasn’t such an issue but outside of all this my point is and my belief is that given what we know of the two playes involved in the trade I would much rather have the D I project Rundblad to be than the center I project Turris to be.
And having lots of solid D isn’t silly, it is smart hockey management.
Well, I'm using names to illustrate my point
It doesn’t mean the situation is true. As DW19 pointed out, Phillips-Chara was our second pairing at one point in time.
Still, saying that you project Turris to be less impactful than Rundblad is an opinion I can respect. But I think in general one position is quite clearly more important than the other. Teams don’t generally use first round picks on 2nd-pairing defensemen, after all.
Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs
I don't think any teams using a first round pick on a 2nd line center either
At least not intentiionally.
I think we just did that with Zibanejad
Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs
Yes, of course I am focusing on the players and not the positions. Positions are basically arbitrary. Rundblad could easily develop into a first pairing defenseman who happens to play on the the 2nd pairing (as in your examples of Malkin, Kesler, etc who are really 1st line centres on deep teams).
I agree with OD99 that the names are the only thing that count in a trade. Some teams win with high scoring second line centres (Pittsburgh, Chicago) and some teams win with roughly even scoring between the 2nd and 3rd lines (New Jersey, Boston).
In this trade Phoenix gets two kicks at the can with Rundblad and a very decent pick, while Ottawa gets a guy who so far has not shown what you would like to see out of a bluechip prospect.
I also think Rundblad could be a 1st pairing guy and is more likely to be 1st pairing than Turris is a 1st liner in my opinion.
Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan
That's not the question
It was if you’d value Martin over Malkin. Your opinion of how they compare to our guys doesn’t factor into a “yes” or “no”.
Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs
Well admit your question isn't a fair comparison and has zero to do with my point
And I can admit I would of course take Malkin over Martin.
If you want to use broad strokes to make your point you can but then so can I…
Would you take Bozak over Chara? One is a 2nd line center and the other WAS a second pairing guy with first pairing potential who is now a Norris winner
This topic and my thoughts are based on the two players involved but I know I also did state I don’t agree that a 2nd line center is MORE important than a good all around D who shows signs of being a 1st liner.
I stick by it – a good 3 or 4 Dman can have a huge impact on the game, especially when it come to winning in the playoffs.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, then
I can’t see any way a 3 or 4 d-man can have the same impact as a 2LC.
Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs
Fair enough
But when you are upset the Turris hasnt scored any points in the playoffs I will point to the #2 D pairing on teh opposition
Wait, wouldn't you point to either Kuba or Gonchar?
Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs
Nope - Turris is on out team now
Because if the #3 and #4 D on the oppostion can shut down Turris then perhaps they will have had a significant impact on the game…perhaps even more than a #2 center.
Anyway, this turned into a completely different discussion than I intended. I am happy to agree to disagree when it comes to our perceived value of positions on a hockey club.
So again yes, I would take Malkin over Martin everyday.
But I also still wouldn’t take Turris over Rundblad – especially when I also have to give up a 2nd rounder ;)
To expand on this, I don´t have much faith in Turris developing. To me this trade is a repeat of the Filatov gamble. Except that in the case of Filatov the price was a third round pick and in the case of Turris, Ottawa is giving up both a better pick and a promising prospect. That feels like too high a price.
As far as Rundblad goes, there is every chance the Sens can replace him in the coming draft. My issue with the trade is that I don´t feel that Turris represents an adequate return for what the Sens gave up. Hopefully, he will prove me wrong.
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- Brodeur, Parise lead Devils to 4-1 Game 4 win over rattled Rangers; East Finals tied, 2-2
- Brodeur, Parise lead Devils to 4-1 win over rattled Rangers; East final tied 2-2
- Brodeur, Parise lead Devils to 4-1 win over rattled Rangers; East final tied 2-2
- Wild prospects lead Saint John past Edmonton
- Labrie stars in Admirals 1-0 overtime win over IceCaps; Norfolk leads series 3-0
