Silver Nuggets: The NHL points system
by Adnan on Nov 9, 2011 1:01 PM EST
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Down Goes Brown pointed out that everyone in the NHL is within two points of .500 with the exception of Columbus. While this lets a lot of fans feel like their team is not that bad, this is a ridiculous situation to me. The fact that two losses can end up almost equalling one win (almost because of tiebreakers) is something that doesn't sit well with me. So here are my preferred alternatives in order of most awesome to least awesome:
1) Three points for a win, one for a tie, none for a loss
This could be the European football fan in me, but this would lead to the greatest effort to push for a victory. By making the difference between a tie and a win greater than the difference between a tie and a loss, teams will be much more motivated to push for the victory. Accumulating too many ties could kill a club late in the season. The inclusion of overtime is not necessary either, I could go either way.
2) Two points for any win, zero points for any loss.
This is a simple format. You win a game you get two points, you lose a game you get nothing. I have nothing against the shootout itself, it's an exciting way to finish a game and always has me on the edge of my seat. It's a legitimate hockey play and involves scoring a goal, the most basic hockey event. It's not like it is a hardest slapshot competition. If a winner must be decided, the shootout is the way to go. Playing indefinitely in the regular season is not feasible.
3) Three points for regulation win, two points for shootout/overtime win, one point for shootout/overtime loss, zero for regulation loss.
This would have the benefit of having exactly three points awarded in every game and still provide an incentive to win a game in regulation. I don't like rewarding teams with anything for losing a game though, which is why this ranks #3.
Links after the jump.
Tonight's game
- The lines for today: 1) Greening-Spezza-Michalek, 2) Foligno-Da Costa-Butler, 3) Daugavins-Smith-Neil, 4) Condra-Konopka-Winchester. (Sylvain St-Laurent)
- Paul MacLean clearly read my comment that the Senators have yet to win a game without David Rundblad. The pairings were: 1) Kuba-Karlsson, 2) Cowen-Gonchar, 3) Phillips-Rundblad. (Sylvain St-Laurent)
- The real reason is that MacLean feels Rundblad is a better player than Brian Lee right now. MacLean confirms that Rundblad was just being given a rest. (Senators Extra)
- Daniel Alfredsson skated for the third straight day, this time with the rest of the team as well. He won't play tonight but can't be too far away. (Ian Mendes)
- And now Alfie says he is day-to-day and will travel with the team on their six-game road trip. (Ian Mendes)
- Game preview for tonight. (Senators Extra, Ottawa Sun)
- Everyone predicts a loss tonight except Ian Mendes and Jeremy Milks. Peter is all alone in front with a 12-3 record and predicts 3-1 for the Rangers. A 3-1 Rangers win seems to be popular, with four panellists predicting that. (Senators Extra)
- Jason Spezza understands that more often that not, if he is scoring, the team is doing well. He doesn't seem frustrated by the last week and hopes to break out tonight. (Ottawa Sun)
- Don Brennan and me sadly have something in common. We both predict Ottawa makes the playoffs. (Ottawa Sun)
- After losing all three games last week, the Senators fell from 9th to 21st in the CBC Power Rankings. (CBC)
- Do the Senators actually have a second line right now? It currently consists of a struggling player with 44 NHL games, a rookie and a player more suited to the bottom six. (The 6th Sens)
- Bryan Murray went on the Team 1200 and spoke about a wide range of topics including Daniel Alfredsson, Milan Michalek, Jason Spezza, Kaspars Daugavins, acquiring another NHL forward, Nikita Filatov, the number of defencemen, Bobby Butler and Stéphane Da Costa. Apparently a fan emailed Murray and complained about Filatov not getting a chance. I didn't know emailing him was possible. (The 6th Sens)
- Is it possible the fan who complained was Alex Fletcher? While I agree with almost everything Alex said regarding Filatov, I promise that Alex Fletcher is not my nom de plume. (Sportsnet Fan Blog)
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I am going to the game tonight! I am excited! :)
The lines today seem good… And I am glad Alfie is doing better! Hopefully he will come back soon!
Also… is it true that you can’t get the Heritage jersey with the name already on it? I wanted to get it with Alfredsson’s name on it but my friend told me to get a name printed on it it will be an additional $100. I think that’s absurd! Does anyone know if it is true? I can ask at the Sens store later tonight I guess.
by Los Blancos Chicca on Nov 9, 2011 1:09 PM EST reply actions
Getting it with the name will cost extra
Not sure how much extra, but at least $50 more. I agree that $100 sounds a little crazy, though…
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by Peter Raaymakers on Nov 9, 2011 1:28 PM EST up reply actions
In Vancouver, it's 100 bucks to get a name on a jersey
I am on the fence about purchasing a Heritage Jersey, and wanted to get a name on the back (probably Karlsson), but it’s hard to justify $100 for a name and number.
Co-manager, Silver Seven
You have excellent taste, couldn't do any better!
If I didn’t already have a Karlsson one, that would definitely be my heritage jersey.
Having said that, I have bought way too many jerseys recently, so going to try to restrain myself from buying any this season. If they continue to wear it next season, I will buy either Rundblad or Lehner…or both.
An Ottawa Senators supporter in Toronto, Ontario. I am cool like that.
by Adnan on Nov 9, 2011 1:44 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I know same here. My home jersey cost an additional $50 to get Fisher's name and number on it.
I am not sure why these would cost $100. I want a heritage jersey but I don’t want to pay $100 for a name and number. My idea was to get with Alfie’s number because Alfie is in the Sens heritage and I figured it was a nice idea to have the Sens legend on it. Sentimental. So now I don’t know if I want it…. grrr decisions!
by Los Blancos Chicca on Nov 9, 2011 1:44 PM EST up reply actions
NHL.com store lists customization as $70, but it's $5 more for the blank, plus s&h
And yeah, with a name (off the rack or ordered) always costs more than blank.
by B_T on Nov 9, 2011 1:36 PM EST up reply actions
I saw a bunch with names already on it at home opener
Although someone at the game (can’t remember who) told me it is cheaper to get it blank and put a name on it than buy one already with a name. Don’t know if that is still true though.
Enjoy the game though!
An Ottawa Senators supporter in Toronto, Ontario. I am cool like that.
by Adnan on Nov 9, 2011 1:28 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
You should come on up to the audio booth in intermission and say hi! :P
A Goal Horn Haiku
Hoooonk hoooonk honk honk hooooonk
That's the sound the train horn makes
Suck it, Toronto
What section are you in for the game?
If you just take the elevators behind section 322 up to the 400 level and tell the ushers that you’re there to see the horn guy, they’ll either let you through or come and get me.
A Goal Horn Haiku
Hoooonk hoooonk honk honk hooooonk
That's the sound the train horn makes
Suck it, Toronto
I am in 308! I'll try to come by! Then I can put a face to the SBP horn guy!!
by Los Blancos Chicca on Nov 9, 2011 3:18 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, like that'll make it all better. :P
I’ll get my goalie mask out before you come up.
A Goal Horn Haiku
Hoooonk hoooonk honk honk hooooonk
That's the sound the train horn makes
Suck it, Toronto
No way the NHL goes back to allowing ties anytime soon
They like the shoot-out too much.
Given that, it’s #3 all the way – with the possible change-up of 3 points for a Reg/OT win, 2 for a SO win, 1 for SO loss and 0 for Reg/OT loss. That way, losing at the team sport gets you nothing, but getting to the individual skills competition gets you a point, with a bonus point for having the better individuals. I don’t think losing in the SO should leave you empty handed.
I don't know if it is just a skills competition
It’s not like you get judged for style of goal or anything. You try and score goals. I know it is part of a skills competition, but it seems a decent way to end a game.
Having said that, I wish ties were back. As with most things, I blame America and their need for a winner and purity of sports and such. ;)
An Ottawa Senators supporter in Toronto, Ontario. I am cool like that.
It is a skill competition though
You don’t get judged for style for the elimination shootout either.
I just don’t agree that the SO, which does come down to individual skills, should carry the same weight as the team game in the points column.
Though it’d be interesting to see the NHL change it from a shootout to a randomly selected skill competition.
“Tonight’s game will be decided by a fastest skater competition”
by B_T on Nov 9, 2011 2:05 PM EST up reply actions
Oh, and I liked ties too
But realistically, that’s just not on the table.
by B_T on Nov 9, 2011 2:06 PM EST up reply actions
Hold on here, you filthy Canuck
The purity of sport is competition, and competition is all about deciding a victor. You don’t race someone to see if you’re equally as fast.
Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs
Thanks for proving my point ;)
An Ottawa Senators supporter in Toronto, Ontario. I am cool like that.
Is your point that Americans understand the definition of the word "competition" and Canadians don't?
Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs
It's not that we don't understand the word competition
It’s that we understand that concept of “the common good.”
See what I did there? I’m talking about sports but alluding to politics.
by RogerTheShrubber on Nov 9, 2011 2:59 PM EST up reply actions
My point is that sometimes two teams are equal on the night despite competing. ;)
An Ottawa Senators supporter in Toronto, Ontario. I am cool like that.
I don't accept that (which I guess DOES prove your point ;) )
Maybe if the competition is coin-flipping. But there are far too many variables in a sporting event to believe “equality” is an acceptable outcome.
Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs
Well I agree there will never be a truly equal performance. But, aren’t there times a team wins despite not being the better team on the night?
So if we can accept a team winning because of the score, despite not being necessarily better, why not accepting a tied game because of the score despite teams not being equal?
An Ottawa Senators supporter in Toronto, Ontario. I am cool like that.
Well, I understand what you're saying, but I believe the score reflects the better team when the game is over
You could outplay//work/whatever your opponent, but if their shots go in and yours don’t, they were better.
Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs
Except the NHL's great desire is parity, not dynasties.
They would much rather have all teams equal and display that parity through the methods that ensure that no one gets an upper hand easily. Got a good, mobile, goalie? Trapezoid. Got a team that’s speedy? Red line. Got a team that’s perfected the trap? Take away the red line.
A Goal Horn Haiku
Hoooonk hoooonk honk honk hooooonk
That's the sound the train horn makes
Suck it, Toronto
Too many ties, leading to dissatisfaction amongst fanbases who are used to always having a winner in more popular sports?
Shootout.
A Goal Horn Haiku
Hoooonk hoooonk honk honk hooooonk
That's the sound the train horn makes
Suck it, Toronto
It also helps that you feel like on any given night your team can win
Not only that, but a team going through a rebuild actually has a chance at the playoffs. Competitive teams, means more teams in more cities doing well, means more league wide revenue. Hence the goal for parity.
Common sense is the most evenly distributed quality in all the world.
Everyone thinks they have enough.
Oh, absolutely. Revenue, because this is a gate-driven league.
Moreso than the other three Bigs.
A Goal Horn Haiku
Hoooonk hoooonk honk honk hooooonk
That's the sound the train horn makes
Suck it, Toronto
I'm not sure that matters
Gate numbers or tv numbers, if more people are tuned in, there’s more money. More people are tuned in if their teams are in it.
by RogerTheShrubber on Nov 9, 2011 3:30 PM EST up reply actions
I wonder if the TV contract negotiations would have anything to do with it, as in terms of revenue.
A Goal Horn Haiku
Hoooonk hoooonk honk honk hooooonk
That's the sound the train horn makes
Suck it, Toronto
Same shit in the end.
More viewers = more advertising money = bigger tv deals.
by RogerTheShrubber on Nov 9, 2011 3:43 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, well, MY great desire isn't parity.
Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs
If we're going to rely on the American system of pure sporting competition...
Shouldn’t we just have a computer tell us which two teams are the best and have them play a single game for the championship?
Then have a bunch of the other top teams play relatively unranked games whose sole purpose financial gain?
by RogerTheShrubber on Nov 9, 2011 2:53 PM EST up reply actions
Ha, yes!
But we have to make sure that we don’t give the players any money, because that would sully the integrity of athletics.
Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs
My vote:
Two points for a win, no points for a loss.
That is all.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Nov 9, 2011 1:27 PM EST reply actions
Then why do shootouts at all?
We shouldn’t go halvsies on this. Either shootouts are part of the game or they aren’t.
by spez_dispenser on Nov 9, 2011 1:47 PM EST up reply actions
That's my thinking, too
I have no problem with treating games that end in a shootout in the same way other games are ended.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Nov 9, 2011 1:51 PM EST up reply actions
I'd have no problem with that
It just seems to me that the NHL needs to shit or get off the pot: Either the shootout is legitimate, and it can be treated normally; or the shootout isn’t legitimate, and it should be discarded.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Nov 9, 2011 2:38 PM EST up reply actions
If it was up to me, there'd be a shootout
But we’d go through ALL the shooters. If the point of a game is to see which team is better, then the whole team should get to contribute.
Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs
I don't think it is a coin flip
It’s not like football where the goalie has to dive one way or the other before the shot is even taken.
An Ottawa Senators supporter in Toronto, Ontario. I am cool like that.
I don't think that's a coinflip either
Both because they score about 75% of the time and because some teams and some keepers are better than others.
by RogerTheShrubber on Nov 9, 2011 2:23 PM EST up reply actions
I’m pretty sure there was some statistics work to show that it more or less was a coin flip, and that while some goalies or players are marginally better, as a whole it was more or less random.
Co-manager, Silver Seven
Seconded, motion passes.
I agree.
I really, REALLY dislike the loser points. About as much as I dislike non-Harey’s hamburgers.
Two for a win, 0 for a loss. Period. Right now, teams are playing “not to lose” and I can’t stand it.
Let me look at the NHL standings quickly…alrighty, under this new system we have:
Pittsburgh 18 points
Toronto 18 points
Washigton 18 points
Buffalo 18 points
Rangers 14 points
Florida 14 points
Tampa 14 points
Not bad. What we’re not seeing, I suppose, would be the effects down the road. By “removing” points from overtime and shootout losses playoff seedings might be done by January-February.
I still like the proposed system though…but I fly by the seat of my pants and have the air miles to prove it, dammit!
by Quizzical Quorum on Nov 9, 2011 1:46 PM EST up reply actions
Then you could just eliminate points entirely
You would just go by number of wins, like they do in the NFL. I see that as a good thing.
by whereverjustice on Nov 9, 2011 5:47 PM EST up reply actions
Also, I disagree with you and Brennan. Still don't see the Sens making the playoffs.
Co-manager, Silver Seven
Nor do I
I’m still more confident in my prediction (13 in the East) than I am in the Senators making the playoffs.
However, I no longer think the Dallas Stars will finish below the Sens. Wow… those guys are nuts.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Nov 9, 2011 1:40 PM EST up reply actions
Erm… I predicted Ottawa to finish 14th in the East, it turns out. And I had no idea Columbus would be as bad as they are.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Nov 9, 2011 1:49 PM EST up reply actions
Points
The problem with the point system is that they shouldn’t be making the value of points exceed the amount of points awarded for a win. You can’t start with 2 points for a win, then conjure up another point for the loser.
The way I’ve always envisioned it is
4 points for regulation win
3 points for an overtime win + 1 loser point
2 points for shootout win + 1 loser point
This puts a heavy incentive to win in regulation and creates a disincentive to going to the skills competition.
It would entirely throw out of whack any previous season point totals records, but at the end of the day, who cares?
You could add bonus points for scoring a certain number of goals too.
They do it in tournament rugby.
It does all seem a bit like football scoring though.
by RogerTheShrubber on Nov 9, 2011 2:32 PM EST up reply actions
It does seem ridiculous, but it really is the only way to score it given the way they changed the rules. I hate the loser point, but the system I outlined is really the only way to properly assign points and to negate the power of the loser point. Unless you want to get into half points, which really gets ridiculous.
I didn't know it was possible but...
…Don Brennan always seems like an even bigger disgrace when they do those Digital Faceoffs.
I like how for one comment in the middle, he randomly became “DB” before going back to Brennan.
An Ottawa Senators supporter in Toronto, Ontario. I am cool like that.
I’m just appalled that a “journalist” is going on the record whining that one of his fellows doesn’t have enough balls to agree with his opinion. That doesn’t even seem respectable on an internet message board.
by spez_dispenser on Nov 9, 2011 2:03 PM EST up reply actions
I'm a footy fan too, but...
I think Option 1 only works in a system where people are happy to cheer on their team regardless of where they finish. Europeans tend to be much more tribal than North Americans, and their sports teams are a bigger part of the communities than we see here. Newcastle doesn’t lose all its fans if they’re mid-table, nor even when they get relegated to a lower league.
Option 1 would create a far greater gap between top and bottom teams very quickly in the NHL, and over an 82 game schedule (vs. 38 in soccer) the gap would be enormous. Most of the playoff picture would be settled early in the yer (save for positioning). I question whether that would be good for the NHL.
Finally, I will add my support for the current system. Keep everyone in it till the end if you can, even if it feels a bit false, because hockey is all about the playoffs. Keep as many teams as possible fighting for the playoffs, and then let them figure out the real winners there. There’s no hiding your faults in a 7 game series where points don’t matter.
by RogerTheShrubber on Nov 9, 2011 2:31 PM EST reply actions
Does Liverpool really play football though?
Or just loft it up and pray? ;)
An Ottawa Senators supporter in Toronto, Ontario. I am cool like that.
I know I know, Scousers have been claiming “This is their year” for two decades. ;)
An Ottawa Senators supporter in Toronto, Ontario. I am cool like that.
You've got that all wrong
Next year is our year.
by RogerTheShrubber on Nov 9, 2011 2:47 PM EST up reply actions
Also, what did I tell you about Ronaldo only scoring in hat tricks? Yet again!
An Ottawa Senators supporter in Toronto, Ontario. I am cool like that.
I know... that last game was crazy..
Three of our guys are in the top 5 in scoring! :D
by Los Blancos Chicca on Nov 9, 2011 2:40 PM EST up reply actions
That's a good point... didn't think about the fans' interest... probably because I stick around through thick and thin!
I’d go with option 2 then.
by Los Blancos Chicca on Nov 9, 2011 2:35 PM EST up reply actions
I wasn't thinking so much about the people who blog about those teams
There are a lot of bandwagon fans out there. For every team. And while the die-hards don’t have to like them, the teams do depend on them financially.
by RogerTheShrubber on Nov 9, 2011 2:49 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah that's what I meant... The more casual... I wasn't referring to bloggers either!
I didn’t think of the impact from a business perscpective is what I was trying to say.
by Los Blancos Chicca on Nov 9, 2011 2:53 PM EST up reply actions
Ya sorry. I kinda read your post wrong.
I think option 2 would probably have similar effects to option 1. Plus the NHL is going to be careful about regressing to pre-lockout rules because it will create the perception that somehow the lockout was for nothing (as if the rapidly-inflating salary cap isn’t enough).
by RogerTheShrubber on Nov 9, 2011 2:56 PM EST up reply actions
It's all good! I may not have been clear..
I just don’t like the points for a loss. Even though it benefits the Sens sometimes, I still don’t think it’s fair.
by Los Blancos Chicca on Nov 9, 2011 3:02 PM EST up reply actions
I actually don't care what system they use.
They all have merit and I understand why people dislike the point for a loss and stuff. I wouldn’t mind if they brought back ties, though I also like the shoot out. It’s a toss up for me.
As with any change to the rules, you must consider the law of unintented consequences
Coaches will most certainly always come up with safe, boring strategies in an attempt to win and gain the most points possible in pursuit of their goal. Wild and reckless play may be hoped for by fans, but it most certainly won’t be adapted by coaches as a strategy. Unless by some miracle Karlsson, Green, Doughty, Weber, Ovechkin, Crosby, Malkin, Backstrom, Kopitar, Giroux, D & H Sedin and Marleau all end up on the same team and are back stopped by Thomas & Vokoun.
Common sense is the most evenly distributed quality in all the world.
Everyone thinks they have enough.
I prefer a win for 2 points & no point for all loses.
But having said that, I do not want any changes at this point. Can you imagine reclassifying prior years only to find out the #1 team in say 2008 would now be 3rd and your team would have been in the playoffs in 2009 & possibly won the cup?
That’s already happened though. You could reclassify pre-OT loss era and find that out.
An Ottawa Senators supporter in Toronto, Ontario. I am cool like that.
Our numbers would be exactly the same
Because we never won a shootout before this year.
by RogerTheShrubber on Nov 9, 2011 3:51 PM EST up reply actions
Really? I feel like I'd remember that.
by RogerTheShrubber on Nov 9, 2011 3:55 PM EST up reply actions
We won 2 last year
We were dreadful, but we beat TO in a shoot-out in Anderson’s first game. We also beat the Rangers in the shoot-out.
All-time we’re 21-34 in the shoot-out
by B_T on Nov 9, 2011 4:00 PM EST up reply actions
I was only kidding
Was is really only 2 last year?
by RogerTheShrubber on Nov 9, 2011 4:06 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, we were horrible for most of the season
We went somewhere around half a season before even scoring a goal in the shootout last year.
And deadpan comedy doesn’t work in text-only communications.
by B_T on Nov 9, 2011 4:12 PM EST up reply actions
I know.
But the inevitable serious responses have a comedic flavour of their own, so I persist.
by RogerTheShrubber on Nov 9, 2011 4:24 PM EST up reply actions
do we play a game tonight?
Or is everything hockey being pre-empted for a televised debate on the NHL points system?
(Please note, this comment is not being made without any humour intended)
by west-sider on Nov 9, 2011 4:50 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Talking points for the game are in the GDT, jerk
That way we can ignore them there and talk about cotton candy!
Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs
I'm assuming "jerk" was all in good fun
I just thought it was amusing we have a first game in a few days after a few losses, continually interesting personnel juggling and all the discussion is about the points system.
Seriously, I thought it was amusing.
by west-sider on Nov 9, 2011 5:21 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Oh yeah, for sure
I’ve never called anyone “jerk” on this site for real, and I never will.
Definitely an amusing discussion choice today.
Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs
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