Silver Nuggets: Murray calls out Crosby and Penguins
by Adnan on Nov 28, 2011 1:00 PM EST
in Silver Nuggets
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PrintBefore the game against Carolina yesterday, Senators general manager Bryan Murray spoke to reporters about Nikita Filatov and Stéphane Da Costa. At around the 4:00 mark of the video, Murray asked the reporters a question of his own, "Nobody want to ask me about Sidney Crosby's comments?" Having been urged on, one reporter finally asked about Crosby's response and then this is what Murray said:
"The rules are very clear now. If you fall into a goaltender, you touch a goaltender, an elbow to the head, butt-end to the head is fair, it's okay. Dan Bylsma said that is okay for them, Sidney said Nick Foligno is that kind of player. I am not sure, I wish he was that kind of player. But, I thought the referees in that game, watching and hearing the comments...it was two and two. He got cross-checked four times, he fell over the goaltender there is no question. Did he get pushed? I don't know that. But he got cross-checked when he was on the ice, he got I thought looked like a butt-end but probably a full-time elbow. He punched back, Kunitz came in with a cross-check and the penalties were even at the end of the incident."
"So if Shanahan says that is a good play, that's a hockey play, Dan Bylsma says that's good for them. Pittsburgh were the biggest ones on the head injuries I thought early on, so...I am remiss, I made a mistake. We didn't have Neil and Carkner play in the game, we didn't have enough toughness. So when we play Pittsburgh, I guess, that's something you can bring up to me again before we play them next time."
Again, I will repeat, this is something Murray brought up himself. The reporters hadn't mentioned it at all and clearly feeling that it wasn't being mentioned enough, Murray ripped the Penguins apart in a rant filled with sarcasm. I for one am very happy Murray did this. Time and time again, the Penguins get the benefit of the doubt with the referees, especially against the Senators. Murray felt liberties were being taken and that the Penguins, and in particular Crosby, were being treated above the rules.
The Senators play the Penguins again in Ottawa on 16 December.
General Sens News
- Game recap from last night. (Silver Seven, Ottawa Sun, Senators Extra, Canes Country)
- Even Don Brennan was impressed with Nikita Filatov last night, saying "If Nikita Filatov skates and competes like he did in his first game back from the minors, he will never see Binghamton again." Brennan also didn't like the scheduling of a game in Canada at the same time as the Grey Cup, after there were no games on US Thanksgiving. (Ottawa Sun)
- Nikita Filatov will at least travel with the club on the upcoming three game road trip. After that, he hasn't been told anything. Hopefully he can continue to get a good chance like he got last night. (Senators Extra)
- Ken Warren also takes issue with Sidney Crosby's acceptance of some head shots. (Ottawa Citizen)
- Bruce Garrioch once again mentions that the Senators are interested in Derick Brassard. (Ottawa Sun)
- Stefan Noesen picked up eight points in three games and was among the three players considered for OHL player of the week, though he did not end up winning. (Bayshore Broadcasting)
- Mika Zibanejad scored a shorthanded goal yesterday in a 4-2 win for Djurgardens. After picking up only one point in his first six games, Zibanejad now has two in two. (Hockey Ligan)
- Mark Stone was the only Senators prospect to be invited to Canada's U20 selection camp. (TSN)
- Having fallen to eight place in the eastern conference, the Washington Capitals fired Bruce Boudreau and replaced him with former Capital, Dale Hunter. (Dale Hunter)
- The Carolina Hurricanes fired Paul Maurice and replaced him with Kirk Muller. (TSN)
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Loved the interview; and what BM had to say
Whether or not it puts pressure on the powers that be to call the game within the rules, instead of letting the darlings of the league always have the benefit of the doubt remains to be seen.
Common sense is the most evenly distributed quality in all the world.
Everyone thinks they have enough.
Voted Yes
Only because I liked the fact that Murray stood up for Nicky but there are a couple of points (and no adnan this has nothing to do with me being a Crosby fan)
- Murray unintentionally insulted Foligno by saying “I wish he was that kind of player” stating that Foligno isnt usually much of a threat to goaltenders
- Let’s all be honest, we’d be pretty pissed off if Staal ran over our goalie 3-4 times in the games, glad Foligno is becoming a goalie pest (pissed off Ward last night too)
- I 100% agree that we should’ve gotten a PP at the end of that scrum but Crosby wasnt the issue (he got penalized) it was Kunitz continous cross checking that went unnoticed
- Maybe its just me but to say this was a “blindside headshot” (not Murray’s words) and warrants a look from Shanahan is stretching it nor is that the type of hits to the head that Crosby was preaching about. Mind you, he is in no position to be touching anyone’s upper body either way. The Patches on Letang hit was waaay worse yet did not create that much of a storm which is why Im finding all this drama ridicoulous
- Even though this has gotten some unnecessary amount of attention, I have to say it’s good because it hopefully ensures the refs on check so that next time we play Pens, they make sure nobody gets any freebies! Now if only Murray can blast the idiotic refs from last night’s game!
One last night: Yes please Brassard, dont know why but I like him
My Jason Spezza Obsession is Perfectly Healthy!
I’d more or less agree with everything here.
But a sort of “bottom line” from me about the whole thing: why is Crosby, a player just back from almost a year off due to concussion, backhandedly-elbowing people in the head? Foligno probably deserved most of that abuse up until then… but why the elbow?
I think Crosby said somewhere that these sort of things “happen all the time” in scrums in front of the net after a whistle. The difference is, it is usually a bunch of a wrestling around and the odd “glove in the face” thing (no one likes that). An elbow straight to the face is not the same thing.
I love Crosby, but I hate him at the same time…
I would like to see Crosby fined
So next time he does it, can’t say has no history, not type of player, etc. Also Crosby should have gotten 2 for cross-checking, as well as elbowing in addition to Kunitz.
In any case, just smacks of hypocrisy for him to cry all summer and then hit a guy in the head in any manner.
Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan
by Adnan on Nov 28, 2011 1:23 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
It’s just a case of the Pens being the dirtiest team in the league, but since they have Crosby and Malkin the league typically will look the other way at the teams transgressions.
by modsuperstar on Nov 28, 2011 1:24 PM EST up reply actions
Dirtiest team is a bit overboard imo
If anything sometimes I wish the Sens had a bit of their grit….Adnan maybe Crosby should’ve been penalized an extra 2 but with the stuff that has gone unsuspended/unfined I truly believe this doesnt warrant fruther discipline
I will admit Crosby was a jack*** on that play but I dont think he’s a dirty player per se
My Jason Spezza Obsession is Perfectly Healthy!
Agreed that the Pens aren’t the dirtiest team in the league. I do think, however, that Bylsma has done an excellent job of teaching them where the line is, and them pushing it to the limits. Watch the beating any player takes for standing in front of Fleury (or any player who tries to get their player away from in front of their own team’s goalie) as an example.
Co-manager, Silver Seven
Maybe I like physicality too much
But Id rather a team give players a beating for running their goalie, then be like the Sabres who whine about it after the game ends and say “we should’ve done more”. I love Bylsma’s coaching style and like you said they do push to the limits just not dirty limits imo
My Jason Spezza Obsession is Perfectly Healthy!
Definitely the dirtiest team in the league
Any team that regularly dresses Craig Adams, Aaron Asham, Matt Cooke, Tyler Kennedy, Steve MacInyre, Deryk Engelland, and Brooks Orpik doesn’t have much competition for being dirty.
Who are 7 players who, combined, have accumulated only 8 more penalty minutes this season than Zenon Konopka?
Cooke, from a fantasy standpoint, has been a frustratingly clean player this season. I PICKED HIM UP FOR PIMS, DAMNIT!
Sure, PIMs don’t tell the whole story. But they definitely tell part of it.
Truly dirty players don’t take penalties. Brooks Orpik would lead the league in PIMs every year if that were the case.
I disagree
Truly dirty players do take penalties. Just not nearly as many as they should, and even occasionally when they shouldn’t (thanks to their reputations).
But they’re still rarely outside of the upper sections of the list for total PIMs.
The dirtiest player ever to lace up a pair of skates
in the NHL is Claude Lemieux. The season he made one of the cheapest cheap shots ever on Kris Draper he had 115 PIMs for 87th in the league. Such players as Chris Pronger, Owen Nolan, Eric Lindros, Brendan Shanahan, Ed Jovanoski, and Keith Tkachuk out paced him. Orpik, Cooke, and Letang are players who are in the mould of Lemieux; yes they can play, but they are some of the most opportunisticly dirty players in the game. Engeland, Adams, Asham, and MacIntyre are just thugs.
I'd consider 87/763 as being in the upper sections
Not leader-board levels, but still up there.
And I certainly won’t deny that Cooke has had a dirty career. But he’s keeping his nose clean this season, so far.
Though I wouldn’t consider Claude Lemieux to be the dirtiest NHL player ever. Top 10 maybe, but I can think of a few players that I consider dirtier than him – including a few hall of famers.
Cooke has to be on his best behaviour.
He has ended careers. He should not be playing. But since he is, he needs to be careful to avoid being suspended.
I'd agree with that
Though if he can keep it up (time will tell), I’ll at least give him a little credit for having that discipline (enough to move him down the all-time list a spot or two, which would still leave him pretty high up on it though), regardless of the real motivation. I think many players would just fall right back into being dirty before too long.
Also this season is a poor example, because their first line centre being injured has necessitated a change in style. They need guys like Kennedy, Cooke, and Kunitz to contribute offensively when Crosby was out.
Stemming from this, last season those 7 players had 650 PIMs. With Orpik magically coming in at only 66 and Kennedy only having 37 from not playing 82 games.
B_T referred to 4 players
Whether Konopka is a dirty player is not what I am getting at, nor to what extent his presence on the Islanders made them a dirty team or not. I was jokingly referring to Konopka’s being on the Islanders that season. Now that you mention it, though, I think it is worth asking what constitutes a ‘dirty team’.
That's kind of what I was getting at
There’s no clear-cut way to determine “dirty team”, so there’s no way to absolutely say “Team X is the dirtiest in the league”. You can have an opinion on it, but opinion ain’t fact.
Crosby's Forearm?
After watching It several times In slow motion, it looked like to me that he actually hit him with his forearm!! Not that it wasn’t dirty but, did anyone else see that?
by fridgefullofmeat on Nov 28, 2011 1:25 PM EST reply actions
I agree
There is a picture in today’s Sun that clearly shows Crosby’s forearm hit Foligno’s chin. This is nothing like the dangerous hits to players’ heads by guys skating at full speed that have caused so many concussions. I wish the team would just drop it.
by Barnsley Pal on Nov 28, 2011 1:34 PM EST up reply actions
That’s just one still photo. Through the motion, pretty sure he elbowed him.
In any case, hit to the head is a hit to the head.
Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan
Agreed.
This isn’t us overreacting. The fact is that Foligno’s lucky he wasn’t hurt (especially when Carolina continued going after his head in the next game), and it’s even worse considering that Crosby and a lot of the other members of the Pens organization have been so vocal about hits to the head. The fact that Crosby may have hit Foligno with his arm instead of his elbow doesn’t change the fact that he hit Foligno in the head.
Oh Captain, my Captain!
What bothers me is that he did it after continually cross-checking him. He obviously stopped that, and decided to go after his head, for some reason deciding that the 3 or 4 cross checks weren’t enough. Regardless of how serious you want to grade being hit in the head (forearm, vs. elbow, vs. full on check).
I mean, by all means, rough Foligno up. He deserved it. But why the head? Why?
I’m pretty sure any impact with the head causes a concussion no matter how slight. I can think of any number of guys who have sat out because of getting pucks in the face or head. Boxers are the most renowned athletes for getting concussions, I don’t think they’re getting many full speed open ice hits. Turning around and giving someone a butt end to the temple is as dangerous as any hit you could ever make.
I love that BMur did that
I love everything about it – the sarcasm, the fact that he’s the one who brought it up, the implication that the Pens are cruisin’ for a bruisin’. Love love love.
Oh Captain, my Captain!
The fact that Bylsma got into it
I was kinda hoping Maclean would fight back for Foligno but Im sure it wouldn’t have been as entertaining as a BM crackdown haha
My Jason Spezza Obsession is Perfectly Healthy!
I absolutely loved the sarcasm
I agree, I loved everything about it. When I was watching it, I was thinking “Yeah! You tell them Murray!”
Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan
I was just laughing
and expecting him to start a CROSBY SUCKS chant in the press conference :P
My Jason Spezza Obsession is Perfectly Healthy!
He doesn't suck
He is a very good player. He’s just obnoxious as
Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan
I want you to write me an entire blog post
on why you think he’s obnoxious: is it his style of play, he’s non grinning interviews, his subtle celebrations, his whinning when he was a rookie? Really I want to know why you hate him so much, you dont even exhibit that kind of hate towards the Habs or Leafs ;)
My Jason Spezza Obsession is Perfectly Healthy!
I don't know how I feel about it
I feel like the situation was blown out of proportion. Crosby did something against the rules and got a penalty for it. Foligno shouldn’t have gotten a penalty, but he did anyway — this happens all the time with coincidental penalties.
What Crosby did was not the kind of headshot that he preached against, so I kind of understand where he’s coming from. However, I agree with Foligno here — you’re the posterboy for saying “don’t hit the head”, and he hit Foligno’s head with a pretty good shot. If someone with a history of concussions is caught off guard by one of those forearms/elbows (whatever it was), they could probably get another concussion from that type of a play.
I think Murray should have just let the situation die, personally.
Co-manager, Silver Seven
Re: officiating, I don't know.
I still think that was worse than usual. Way too many cross-checks that went unpunished together with the questionable call on Foligno.
But really, it seems to me like BMur was standing up for Foligno. I think part of why BMur didn’t just let it die was to make it clear that we’re with Foligno on this one. Crosby and Shanahan and Bylsma can say what they want about it being a hockey play, but we’re with Foligno on this one.
Oh Captain, my Captain!
Yeah he really wanted to get it off his chest, going out of his way to say it.
Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan
I'm a bit surprised he had to suggest it
Figured someone would ask on their own, but then again it’s so much more entertaining that Murray brought it up.
Oh Captain, my Captain!
Yeah I think he went “Anybody? Anybody? No?” “Oh…you do? Okay.”
Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan
All the reporters going "Who wants to ask him this? You? I don't wanna do it. What's going to happen?"
A Goal Horn Haiku
Hoooonk hoooonk honk honk hooooonk
That's the sound the train horn makes
Suck it, Toronto
Nobody asked him about it because
it really didnt warrant a statement from the GM ;)
My Jason Spezza Obsession is Perfectly Healthy!
I'm with you
I think Crosby was acting like an asshole, and he played right into the hands of everyone who calls him a whiny, immature brat: He moans when someone plays him hard, and then goes out and plays dirty himself. The hits weren’t the same type, but the fact remains: If Crosby wants more respect amongst players, maybe he should start by looking in the mirror.
On the other hand, I didn’t feel much need for Murray to address the situation in the media. It honestly feels like a non-issue to me; next game, Foligno will line up with Konopka and Neil, and he will take a run at Crosby. Then we’ll see all hell break lose.
Silver Seven | Twitter | Facebook | E-mail | eBay
by Peter Raaymakers on Nov 28, 2011 2:35 PM EST up reply actions
Silver lining: I now have a concrete example to bring up when people try to tell me what a stand-up, nice guy he is.
Oh Captain, my Captain!
He's young. He has lots of time to pile up evidence for us haters ;)
by Pmoron on Nov 28, 2011 2:59 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I've used that explanation to excuse past actions
It doesn’t cut it anymore. There’s no reason why he shouldn’t act like an adult now; he’s 24 years old.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Nov 28, 2011 3:54 PM EST up reply actions
The Pens know Crosby was wrong about the elbow
why else would Crosby and Bylsma talked about Foligno running over Fleury as justifying the elbow? A hit to the head has nothing to do with whether Foligni was interfering with Fueury. Like BM said, so there are some instances when you can justify concussing an opposing player with a deliberate elbow to his head?
by whatsinaname on Nov 28, 2011 4:04 PM EST up reply actions
still concussed
Is Sid still concussed? He comes back and expects everyone else to kneel and take one on the chin. Then when he does something like that, everyone else comes to his defense, his coach, Shanahan… I wish someone would legally elbow him again, because it is a hockey play you know, and I love hockey.
I am mad, because I hate cowards, and even more I hate cowards who do to others what they ask not to be done to anyone. Unless he is still concussed that is… then I take everything I said back – it is probably doctor’s issue…
Go Sens Go!
expacts people to kneel?
This was Crosby’s third game and I don’t know if you had seen the past 2 games but except for the first 15 mins of the first agst Isles, people felt free to take whatever hits on him. Nobody was backing off and he was being shoved in scrums, hit by the boards, tripped up and nobody was getting unfairly penalized against him. He felt that it was overblown and obv as Sens fans we’re going to take offense to it but tbh it IS overblown and if it were any other player people wouldnt have made such a big deal
My Jason Spezza Obsession is Perfectly Healthy!
because no other player made such a big deal of it...
Well, he is a poster boy for conussions, he talks about them, about how hits to the head should not be part of the game, that is why he is expected to set an example… and he does this… I know, it is not like he was cruising 60 mph when he hit Foligno, but elbow to the head is no joke.
In Isles game btw, he admitted himself that he was not moving his feet and was putting himself in dangerous situations. overblown or not, he should be better than that, he does not need that and I am surprised we are talking about it even. He is the center of NHL’s attention, and as such he deserves all and any publicity he gets – even negative, it should’t be swept under the rug just because he is Sid the Kid.
Go Sens Go!
Nobody said to sweep it under the rug
but by the same logic just because it’s “Sid the Kid” it should be made a bigger issue than it is. Last night at one point in the game some Cane player had Foligno drilled on the ice behind the net and was continously cross checking him to the ice which to me was a more dangerous play. No call even though Foligno was screaming for one and absolutely no outcry from fans so…..I repeat “OVERBLOWN”
My Jason Spezza Obsession is Perfectly Healthy!
An elbow or hit to the head is always a more dangerous play
than a cross check. A 30 mph, 20 feet run at another player is not more dangerous than a short jab of the elbow to the head. The danger is where on the head as well, as well the compactness of the blow. In martial art, the idea punch to the head is a very close up one, in essence, a short, maximum on impact blow. Crosby’s elbow might accidentally have that effect.
by whatsinaname on Nov 28, 2011 4:16 PM EST up reply actions
Believe me, the fans were yelling about it in the arena.
A Goal Horn Haiku
Hoooonk hoooonk honk honk hooooonk
That's the sound the train horn makes
Suck it, Toronto
Say what, Adnan?
Time and time again, the Penguins get the benefit of the doubt with the referees, especially against the Senators
I just don’t see this at all. I always feel that perceived officiating bias is the result of insecurity. I mean, officials are graded by their leagues on how well they officiate a game. What possible benefit could there be to doing your job poorly in order to favor one team?
Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs
by Mark Parisi on Nov 28, 2011 2:22 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I don’t know what the reasoning is, but this is always the feeling I get against Pittsburgh and not really against any other team.
It is good for the NHL if Pittsburgh does well, I don’t think the refs actively try to fix games, but they seem to get the benefit of the doubt more often that not.
Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan
No offense
But the Pens dont need the refs to be good a team….. and every team feels their refs are biased to one team and the more non Sens hockey I watch the more I realize reffing is just consistently bad refardless of matchup
My Jason Spezza Obsession is Perfectly Healthy!
The Penguins are a great team
I don’t deny that.
Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan
But it's not consistently as bad as that scrum
I mean, the cross-checking should have been called and the penalty to Foligno was pretty iffy. If it was just one of those things on its own, I’d agree that it’s nothing exceptional, but I think it’s absolutely ludicrous that we came out of that scrum still at even strength.
Sure the reffing is consistently bad, but it kinda says something that the Team 1200 people yesterday were speculating about the refs managing the game and not giving us a powerplay because the score was so lopsided.
Oh Captain, my Captain!
When did Team1200 say that?
I listened to the post game and they were actually offended when a caller suggested it. Either way, Ive seen refs screw up WAAAAY more than that scrum but that’s just me
My Jason Spezza Obsession is Perfectly Healthy!
This is only speculation
It can’t be proven. While I may not agree with league rulings all of the time, and I certainly don’t agree with referee’s calls all of the time; I refuse to believe that the league and its referees are calling cames to favour any particular team. While it is clear that the league benefits from Pittsburgh doing well, as well as the original 6 franchises doing well, it hurts them just as badly to have teams such as Phoenix, Columbus, Florida, Tampa Bay, Anaheim etc suffer. The league can’t afford to have a real controversy regarding the fair officiating of the game – the PR damage that would result would take years to overcome.
From our vantage point on the couch, we’re looking at the game from an entirely different angle and perspective – not to mention having the benefit of instant replay & multiple viewing angles. When you are officiating a sport, things happen quickly and you don’t always see the play. Even with two referee’s, things will still get missed, and are sometimes just viewed differently from the referees perspective on the ice.
I would suggest that the majority of the players will get the benefit of the doubt from the referee, until they have done something to earn a reputation that shows them deserving otherwise. But I refuse to believe that an entire team would get the benefit of doubt over another team.
Common sense is the most evenly distributed quality in all the world.
Everyone thinks they have enough.
Agreed - I definitely can't prove it
But it’s what I think from what I’ve seen of them against us and a few games against other teams.
Granted they are not exactly my favourite team either so take it for whatever it is worth. ;)
Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan
What possible benefit?
Are you unfamiliar with the concept of gambling? Because if you’ve got money on a game, I certainly see a possible benefit to doing your job poorly in order to favour one team. Wasn’t there some huge scandal in the NBA when that happened?
Note that I’m not saying the NHL refs are throwing games or anything. But there are tons of reasons why officials could be biased. Maybe Bettman told them to protect Crosby. Maybe they hate a certain player or team (it’s gotta happen from time to time, and could easily lead to subconscious bias). Who knows why, but there are tons of reasons.
Oh Captain, my Captain!
If that were true
both Hedman and Steckel wouldve been suspended, watch any other game and it always seems like refs are on a certain side. Like last night, did Bettman told refs to protect Staal, Skinner? Maybe star players get better treatment but its ALL star players not just Crosby and/or Pens
My Jason Spezza Obsession is Perfectly Healthy!
I'm not saying any of it's actually behind the bad officiating
Just responding to Mark’s comment that he didn’t see any possible benefit to biased reffing. There are tons of reasons for it.
Oh Captain, my Captain!
You're forgetting Crosby's early career when he regularly dove and got calls.
Eventually he wasn’t getting the calls and that began to change. Well I think he’s smarter about it, but I would say the attention on Crosby and the continued PR would probably make the refs a little nervous about blowing calls against him. Maybe that’s not true, but you can’t deny that there are plausible reasons for bias.
by Pmoron on Nov 28, 2011 2:54 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
He still dives, he's just better at it.
That is, for a guy who has a freakishly strong core he sure does seems easy to knock down sometimes…
Scholar, Gentleman, Shameless Sens Homer with a Heart of Gold.
by Johnny_Spectacular on Nov 28, 2011 3:12 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Yeah, there are definitely plausible reasons for INDIVIDUAL bias
It’s team bias that I’m not buying.
Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs
I still disagree
We’ve had stretches in the last couple of seasons when the refs… shall we say had little patience for us. If a team is perceived as always whining to the officials or something, then the officials collective behaviour towards that team does change and they’ll call fewer penalties. I don’t have dates or stats or anything, but I remember this happening for a stretch of at least a couple weeks either in the first half of last season or some time in the season before that.
My point is, though, that it does happen. I agree that people use officiating as an excuse a lot of the time, but as with most things there’s a kernel of truth in there. I’m not saying individual refs hate us, but if every time the whistle blows somebody’s throwing their arms up in the air and calling for a penalty, the refs are going to 1) stop calling as many penalties and as a result probably miss some things that should be called, and 2) stop listening to members of that team even when those team members might have a legitimate point to make about a call/non-call.
Oh Captain, my Captain!
Didn't we have a stretch of three games with maybe one penalty?
Or in the playoffs against Pittsburgh they’d get a bunch of penalties in the first and second periods and we’d get a few at the end of the third (or penalties where we got one too so it’s a wash) and so on paper it looked like we got the same number of penalties, but in reality they got a bunch early on, got a lead, and then we’re playing catch up later?
That's not exactly accurate unless neither Spezza nor Alfredsson is a star
Spezza missed how many games last year after a dirty hit into the boards that wasn’t called. Alfredsson gets a shot to head causing a concussion and it’s just a “hockey play.”
I don’t think the refs consciously favor one team or the other, but the NHL really needs to improve the officiating. I know it’s a fast game, but it doesn’t look good when they miss a blatant high stick where there’s blood everywhere or when somebody seems to score and the ref says he was “going to blow the whistle.”
Those "benefits" come with some serious downsides
Sure, if a given ref has a gambling problem those downsides probably won’t register properly, but they’re still there.
The downsides to that kind of activity definitely DO register with the league though, thanks to the huge scandals they cause. They do keep a careful watch out for any individual impropriety like that. A handful of isolated cases could probably slip through, but nothing as consistent one team (or even one matchup) on a regular basis.
Well, yes, there was a scandal in the NBA
Because that ref was caught, exposed, and wound up losing way more money than he made. So, short term, I guess that’s a benefit, but long term… not so much.
The whole “Bettman told them to” is something I consider pretty silly, so I’m not going to touch that.
I’m definitely willing to accept that refs have biases against players. We know guys like Neil and Ruutu don’t get calls because of the way they play, and Stéphane Auger has been involved in enough controversies to make me believe he’s that kind of official. But to be biased against an entire team? That’s the kind of conspiracy theory I just can’t take seriously.
Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs
by Mark Parisi on Nov 28, 2011 3:27 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I just think in the key moments (or sometimes maybe not in key moments), the Penguins get more calls in their favour.
It’s not so blatant to be corrupt, but it is there in my eyes.
Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan
I understand that's your perception, but I just don't see the same thing
We’ll have to agree to disagree on this one, because I don’t even know how to begin to disprove such a subjective thing.
Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs
Play review survey with a "unbranded" control portion
Which would require far more effort to pull off than it would actually be worth.
Oh I've seen it
The NHL wants their little golden boy to do well.
That was my first thought.
Also, Matt Cooke still being in the goddamn league after the stuff he’s done…
by RogerTheShrubber on Nov 28, 2011 10:06 PM EST up reply actions
Well, your opinion doesn't really constitute acceptable proof for me
I agree that the NHL has a vested interest in seeing its stars succeed; I don’t agree that they’d go so far as to instruct their officials to call the game differently for them.
Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs
by Mark Parisi on Nov 28, 2011 4:20 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You said that in a far more diplomatic way than I would have
And for that, sir, I rec.
I think it's more the "Kobe Bryant fouls"
Where the referees favour the star players. I think it happens in every sport. And I certainly think that Pittsburgh has gotten the advantage of some of it over the last few years.
by RogerTheShrubber on Nov 28, 2011 10:07 PM EST up reply actions
I think the reffing issue is a red herring
without the benefit of some patented Adnan Statistical Analysis™, it’s really tough to call biased reffing. It makes me think of that phenomenon with cars, where they say when you buy a certain make/model of car, all of a sudden you start seeing them everywhere. I feel it every game, that the calls seem to be against us – i’m sure there is no NHL conspiracy against the Sens. Major League Baseball and the Expos, however, is a different story…
However, back to Crosby, his shot on Foligno was clearly a shot directed at the head – whether it be by forearm, elbow or butt-end. The strength of these guys, it doesn’t matter. And the amt of time he was there on Foligno and as in control of his play as he is, I just do not buy it was not intentional.
If Shannahan was still in control of his position/role vis-a-vis discipline, it should have been reviewed (as with the Wolski-Alfie hit). However, I’ve read that Shanny has been effectively muzzled as GMs felt he needed to be reigned in.
I'm a yes.
If only for the ‘we know now that this is within the rules’ bit (paraphrase) along with the veiled threat of bringing up the lack of Neil and Carks on the ice…Murray is old school. I expect a fuuun game come the 16th.
Scholar, Gentleman, Shameless Sens Homer with a Heart of Gold.
by Johnny_Spectacular on Nov 28, 2011 3:18 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Crosby responds to Murray now
Foligno to Crosby to Murray to Crosby again.
Link
On if he heard or read the comments from Senators GM Bryan Murray on him:
I heard about it. I mean, I think it’s getting blown way out of proportion. It’s ridiculous. It’s a play that happens in every game and I guess the fact that it’s me, it’s dissected and analyzed a hundred times more. I really think they’re making something out of nothing. If they want to keep kind of beating it around, they can, but I don’t have anything else to say about it. I think it’s ridiculous we’re still talking about it three days later, to be honest with you.
On it not being the first time Murray has made comments involving him:
He’s been doing that since my first year. That’s nothing new.
Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan
And all the attention surrounding your recovery from a concussion wasn’t “blown out of proportion”, Crosby? Sorry everyone, I’m happy he wasn’t permanently injured, but I think the league was doing just fine without Crosby. I didn’t care about his comeback. His comments here even show that he’s so full of himself.
Murray is the only GM who’s on to him.
I don't remember Crosby blowing his recovery & return out of proportion
I remember the media blowing it out of proportion.
Crosby ^ “The Media”
Crosby remained his usual low-key self about it (yes, I know, I know – it’s 110% an act and he’s actually got the biggest ego on the planet or somesuch). So I’m not really sure why the actions of the media, on a different topic, should somehow invalidate his comments. Of all the arguments that could be made against his comments, that’s about the worst one possible.
by B_T on Nov 28, 2011 4:17 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Rec'd for link to disjoint sets
Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan
OMG, you rec'd a marginally pro-Crosby comment!
Even if it was for the absolute least Crosby-related part of the comment.
I’m glad that the link was spotted though!
I did go to the University of Waterloo. I am as geeky as they get. ;)
Erik Karlsson is better than your favourite player.
Twitter: @sens_adnan
Good to know your geeky-ness outweighs your Crosby hatey-ness
As well it should!
I spotted it as well
I laughed, cause you’re a stats nerd.
Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs
Came out wrong
Just got annoyed about his comment. I read it as "Anything positive that happens to me/ anything “heroic” that I do should be broadcast to the world, but any dirt people dig up on me should be forgotten".
in case you havent noticed
Crosby = Professional Hockey Media
If you think anything else, you obviously didn’t see the ridiculous orgy of over-blown comebacks that was his comeback game.
Of course he’s going to say the media is blowing it out of proportion – did we actually expect a mea culpa?! Ironic thought that media blowing things out of proportion has made him a rather tidy sum of money…
I think this is a bit much
It’s one thing for Crosby to profit from his media exposure – that may or may not be a good thing. But it’s not as though he has direct control over much (if any) of the coverage in the media.
by JonathanA on Nov 29, 2011 12:09 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
That's just dumb
“Crosby = Professional Hockey Media” is false. Outright, 100% false. It’s a delusional concept.
He is not the media. He is not a member of the media. He does not control the media. He does not make decisions for the media in regards to what they cover, what gets the most airtime, etc. Crosby can choose to go along, choose to ignore, or choose to impede. But the talking heads will still talk about what they’re going to talk about, regardless of if Crosby decides to give them a nice sound bite or a simple “no comment”.
“Crosby = Professional Hockey Media’s favourite topic”? Sure, that’s true often enough – especially during his injury, recovery and return. But that’s a completely different statement, and one that reflects far more on the media than on Crosby.
I can agree with that.
Crosby the player I don’t care for. I don’t think he’s exciting to watch, as compared to Ovie when he’s on his game, or even Karlsson. Hell, I think Stamkos would be doing just as well if he had Pittsburgh’s supporting cast around him. But he’s a good player, and I can respect that – the same way I’d respect any other teams top guy as a threat.
But Crosby the Media Sensation is what annoys me. He’s in the media CONSTANTLY. I always root against the Pens because as soon as Crosby is out of the playoffs, reporting becomes much more balanced and suddenly you start hearing about the rookie with a breakout year, or the veteran who is stabilizing his young team, or other, more interesting stories.
Yeah. The media attention isn't all his doing
But I also think it’s incredibly naive to pretend that he’s not playing into it or that his handlers aren’t encouraging it. If he wanted less media attention about his recovery from the concussion, maybe he shouldn’t have scheduled a press conference to talk about it.
Oh Captain, my Captain!
Yeah, he plays along to some extent
But they’re going to talk about it regardless.
There is some weight to the theory of “If we throw them a bone, maybe they’ll stop bothering us about it” – though it does go the other way sometimes too. There’s also the “If they’re going to talk about it, we might as well make sure they’ve got the story right” school of thought.
And yes – the “We can use this media frenzy” school of thought too.
Well sure they're still going to talk about him
But if he consistently refused to play into the media frenzy, I bet they’d be talking about him a whole lot less. I see it as a deliberate strategy to play into the media hype to make sure the Crosby brand stays hot.
Oh Captain, my Captain!
If he didn't talk to them they might pull a Garrioch.
And complain about how he thinks he’s so much better than everyone else.
See Garrioch vs Elliot, 2010.
I don't know it'd be a whole lot less
A little less at least, eventually… But there would still be a media frenzy about most of the things he does. The way to get it to die down in the long would be for him to stop playing hockey (or at least stop playing hockey well). Look at how little media coverage Ovie is getting these days, past the now-occasional “when is he going to break out of his slump?” piece.
But beyond the possibility The Tif suggested, the media could also pull the other “Garrioch” – baseless speculation and making shit up!
Given the alternatives, I definitely can’t blame him/his people for going with the method that can somewhat guide the narrative. It’d be silly not to.
I think the league was doing just fine without Crosby
Frankly, I think the league was doing better without him. They were covering all the teams, all the stories and all the angles. It was much more interesting to be honest – now almost every time I load up TSN, it’s Crosby does this, or Crosby does that. He doesn’t even have to be playing to make the frakking front page!
That will (hopefully) die down
Though it may just become a shared spotlight if Ovie wakes up and goes on a scoring spree.
Same problem though.
One guy dominating the headlines, rather than the story of a team.
Crosby goes down – media has two storylines: 1) A team, without its star player, goes on to finish 4th in the East, losing to Tampa in 7 games. With him out of the lineup, they start the 2011-12 season on top, and are currently 1st (I think they were 4th before he came back).
Or 2) Spend a lot of time talking about the Star Player™ and how the game has changed, and how his recovery is going, and how awesome he is, and how much this could affect his legacy if he retired, and then, when he returns, devotes pages and pages and pages on his return.
I much prefer the first. I like the team-based storylines, I like hearing about how Columbus is struggling with their top guys out, and how Carolina isn’t doing well, and how Ottawa and Toronto are defying expectations, and how Edmonton is finally coming together as a team and reaching their potential. But that’s not the story the media chooses to run with, preferring the cheap pageviews a story about a star will get.
Oh, I agree
I didn’t mean to suggest “shared spotlight” was any real improvement.
Don’t get me wrong – stories about the individuals who are doing something notable deserve airtime as well, but shouldn’t consistently dominate headlines or drown out team stories. And let’s face it – 9 points in his first 4 games back is notable, but so is the 8 points in the same 4 games from Malkin, not that we hear about that much.
I don't think BM sounded whinny
because I am sure he said what a lot of people must be thinking. Most commentaries I heard on tv so far have been critical of Crosby.
by whatsinaname on Nov 28, 2011 4:26 PM EST up reply actions
The more I think about it, the more I think he did it to show the guys he's supporting Foligno
The hit was dirty and Crosby’s a hypocrite, but none of it’s bad enough to necessarily need BMur getting involved… Foligno handled it in a really classy way IMO, and then Bylsma and Crosby basically both implied that he should suck it up because that’s hockey. Someone from this team needed to respond and make it clear that we’re with Foligno on this one. Maybe it didn’t need to imply that we’re going to kick Crosby’s ass next month and maybe it could have been dripping with a touch less sarcasm, but someone needed to come back out on Foligno’s side here. With the timing of the Carolina game, it’s not really well-suited to the players doing it but BMur bringing it up again seems good for morale and to send a good message to our young guys.
Oh Captain, my Captain!
"a touch less sarcasm"
That’s a French-Canadian thing (or even a French thing). They have a much more acidic sense of humor than us anglophones in my experience.
Yes Bryan Murray!
I’m so glad our GM despises Crosby like I do! It’s ridiculous how much the refs (and media) have favoured the Pens over the years. Crosby’s not tough. He’s dirty. And he’s a whiner (to paraphrase what Alfie said a few years back).
The Sens have taken too many unpunished dirty hits this year…. I’m looking forward to our revenge.
What did Alfie say? I've forgotten...
by Pmoron on Nov 28, 2011 7:02 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Quote by Alfredsson in '06 comparing Ovie and Crosby
He doesn’t get frustrated if he gets hit, either. He gets up and keeps playing. Not like the other rookie [Crosby], who starts crying. I think there’s a big difference in the attitude
Love the truthfulness here!
I would have respected Crosby
if he had apologized after the game for the elbow just as Max P had to Letang.
Thirded
Scholar, Gentleman, Shameless Sens Homer with a Heart of Gold.
by Johnny_Spectacular on Nov 28, 2011 8:39 PM EST up reply actions
Seriously.
Dirty hits happen in the heat of the moment. Look at Asham being such a jerk after knocking out that rookie. But when you do something that dirty, the best way to handle it is just to apologize and move on.
Oh Captain, my Captain!
WJC camp
I’m kinda sad that Puempel didn’t make it to camp!! :(
by fridgefullofmeat on Nov 28, 2011 5:51 PM EST reply actions
Any organization that criticizes hits to the head but dresses Matt Cooke is laughable.
It would be like Michael Vick being the spokesperson for PETA.
I'll never forget Lemieux criticizing the league for not taking hits to the head more seriously.
Most ridiculous and hypocritical thing I’ve heard in years. I still can’t believe he said that.
by Pmoron on Nov 28, 2011 6:27 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
See Sean Avery
NYR and Dallas at least had the cahones to deal with the player on principle based on his on/off-ice actions. Pitt has a serious credibility gap in relation to these two orgs, for example.
I wouldn't say that NYR ever have.
They reassigned Avery for cap room, didn’t they? Dallas got rid of Avery because of his behaviour, but NYR wouldn’t have taken him back as soon as Dallas dumped him if his antics were a problem for them.
Oh Captain, my Captain!
The consensus when Mario called the NHL out was
it would come back to bite him as his players ended up being the ones hitting opponents on the head. Sure enough, when Matt Cooke went headhunting, Mario was quiet. Yea, it’s never you, it’s always someone else.
by whatsinaname on Nov 29, 2011 12:18 AM EST up reply actions
Uh
Not just dressing him, they gave him the A when Crosby was out last season. That’s a much bigger problem to me. Dress him, but don’t go out of your way to reward that while simultaneously complaining about dirty head shots in the media.
Oh Captain, my Captain!
by AlfieGirl on Nov 29, 2011 11:24 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Aside: Pacioretty was suspended for his hit on Letang
http://tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=381476
Well, it’s good to know there is justice if you have a Penguin on your chest.
Well I think it makes perfect sense
If you were the victim of a horrible hit that took you out of your team’s lineup when they really needed you, you should know better.
Oh Captain, my Captain!
by AlfieGirl on Nov 29, 2011 11:30 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Probably
But the hits were completely different in nature.
I didn’t like the hit on Letang, but considering the plays that have gone without suspension, I’m surprised Pacioretty’s received one. Especially when Shanahan conceded that Letang got himself into that vulnerable position.
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by Peter Raaymakers on Nov 29, 2011 1:25 PM EST up reply actions
I actually haven't seen the Paccioretty hit
I was more expressing a general principle that people who’ve had serious concussions should know better than to target others’ heads.
Oh Captain, my Captain!
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