Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Carmelo Anthony, Amar'e Stoudemire Vow To Fit In With Lin

Phoenix Coyotes making us look bad


As a hockey fan and there are many here just like me, aren't you sick and tired of the Phoenix Coyotes saga? Another setback to ownership erupted in Glendale last week. Apparently there are now three potential owners negotiating with the city for a new lease.  Ice Edge announced they had financing secured in June and it comes out they don't have it. This caused them to lose their exclusive negotiating rights.

Today I both heard and read that they only have 1800 season ticket renewals for next year. Enough already with the on again-off again reality of playing hockey in the desert. If you scan local newspapers, they are behind high school football in the news. In this very blog I have seen nothing new on the Phoenix front as far as the new ownership issues and there are hardly any responses to the articles that are posted except from Winnipeg fans wanting their team back. Unless someone actually puts up their own money, no bank or investors are going to go into something where you stand to lose 25 million a year unless you win the cup every season. They had a very successful season last year by hockey standards, finishing third in their confrence and yet they attracted flies.

There is no way NHL attendance figures for Phoenix were real as the team would not have lost that much money. Not sure if I've said this here before but the Sens radio guys said that there were maybe 5000 at the game Ottawa played there last year. I saw empty seats during the playoffs as well, despite one network managing to darken the lower level bowl for most of the game. This is making us look bad. Fans of other major sports think we are crazy to follow this never ending drama. I listen to four major American sports networks on the radio and on the internet and hockey is completely off the radar as foot ball season approaches .

This FanPost was written by a member of the Silver Seven community, and does not necessarily reflect the beliefs or opinions of the site managers, editors, or Sports Blogs Nation, Inc.

Comment 24 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

Can't say I'm surprised Phoenicians (?) don't want to commit to the team

1800 season tickets sold is terrible, but the team’s off-ice fiasco is such a nightmare that even the best fan could be forgiven for giving up. There’s not even any certainty the team will start next season in Phoenix (although it seems unlikely they’d move at this point), so why buy tickets? It’s too bad, because they have one of the league best (and most underrated) goaltenders, and had a good season last year.

If you do want ’Yotes news, check out Five for Howling. They do a hell of a job over there.

by Peter Raaymakers on Aug 5, 2010 10:52 AM EDT reply actions  

Travis is a great blogger

And one hell of a hockey fan, too.

It’s a shame that there aren’t more like him in Phoenix because nobody wants to see teams relocated.

That said, the writing has to be on the wall for the City of Glendale. The latest rumours have Reinsdorf throwing his hat back into the ring, but to the taxpayers of Glendale, that hat is more busker’s military cap than businessman’s fedora.

For the sake of the millions and millions of Phoenicians (that does sound a little too biblical, doesn’t it?), the NHL needs to stop pimping Reinsdorf as their favourite potential owner, ‘cause he’s never gonna relent on hs outrageous demands from the city. And let’s face it, Phoenix is home to millions (and Glendale proper to roughly a quarter-million of those), but I think it has been proven for 15 years now that only a small fraction of that population is willing to pay real dollars for hockey.

How would we feel if Mayor Larry authorized massive guarantees to some billionaire NFL owner looking to run a cricket team out of Landsdowne?

Of those quarter-million Glendale residents, how many are taxpayers, and how much sould each of them contribute to a sport they have no interest in?

One of the contributors over at Five for Howling, named zyllyx, has been a season ticket holder for a few years now. At the price he quoted me for a 4-pack of lower bowl season tickets, I doubt I could get a pair of similar seats at SBP for a half-season. For that matter, I doubt you could afford a 9-pack in Toronto (not that those are even available to anyone who wasn’t on the waiting list for the past 10 years).

It is unfortunate, but I think Ottawans accepted the fact that the Lynx had to move. There was no effort from the Phillies of from the commissioner or even from the Blue Jays to keep them here once it was clear that the market had spoken. Same goes for the Expos, the Grizzlies, the Calgary Cannons, the Edmonton Trappers, the Vancouver Canadians, and to a lesser degree, the Jets, Nordiques, Whalers and certainly the North Stars.

I feel bad for Travis and zyllyx and company, but it’s time to let go. Accepting Reinsdorf’s lowball bid will only cost the hockey-apathetic population of Glendale to fund a billionaire’s long-term plan to move the team to Vegas or Kansas City. Time to cut bait.

by Spezzal Teams Playa on Aug 5, 2010 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

Lots of people want to see the team relocated.

Not because I think hockey is doomed in the desert, or that Phoenix doesn’t deserve a team. But they skipped ahead and got a franchise at the expense of Winnipeg and before potentially better markets like Seattle, Portland, Milwaukee and Indianopolis.

I want Winnipeg to have it’s team back. If that means Phoenix loses it’s team, so be it. It’s just stolen property being returned it’s rightful owner.

Buying out Kubas since July 2010

by GelatinousMutantCoconut on Aug 5, 2010 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rightful owner being the key phrase

The problem with Winnipeg was that no rightful owner could be found. That’s my biggest issue with the team staying in Phoenix.

If anyone believes that Reinsdorf wouldn’t move the team in 5 years, they’re being naive. As naive as believeing that Ice Edge represent solid ownership when they clearly have no capital of their own.

Whether Bettman gave Winnipeg a long enough chance to find an owner or not is not a Phoenix issue for me. It’s a Bettman issue. And just because I believe that he was wrong for not doing more to try to keep the team in Winnipeg doesn’t mean that I think he should have let the Yotes move to make things even.

I applaud the league for trying their best to find viable ownership to keep the Yotes in Phoenix, but I think the past 15 years – and far more importantly, the last 15 months – have proven beyond a reasonable doubt that nobody wants to own the team in Glendale and that not enough people in Glendale / Phoenix want to patronize the team at fair market prices.

It was a tragedy that Winnipeg was left behind when Bettman’s overall mandate to increase revenues led to escalating salaries that a small market could no longer afford to support. And it is equally tragic that a city of 4 or 5 million cannot be convinced to support a team in a now far more high-cost industry.

I blame demographics. Be it the large proportion of retirees on fixed income, the large percentage of Latinos and (to a lesser extent) Blacks who are not culturally invested, the disproportionate real estate bust that accompanied such an aging population, or the sparse urban sprawl that makes Glendale far more isolated than Kanata from the more stand-alone communities in the east end, I cannot help but blame uncontrollable factors that cause the 4 million-strong city to behave economically differently than most other NHL markets.

Sure, Tampa has retirees, and Miami has Latinos, and L.A. has sparsely separated stand-alone neighborhoods and Detroit has real estate disasters, but Phoenix seems to be a perfect storm of all these factors unlike any other market.

And don’t forget that Miami isn’t far behind, in terms of inviabililty. They could easily be the second team to be forced to move.

But with Phoenix, you then need to add on an unwilling owner who got dragged into the role against his will and likely used the team to restructure his other assets’ debt service, and the costs of running that franchise have been much higher than they should have been.

For them to now break-even, they’d need to generate more than $80M in revenue, but they don’t have concessions like parking and food, while a team like Nashville or Carolina can get away with a $45M player payroll and still break even with only $60M in revenues.

Long story short (I know, too late), the situation was already hopeless before Moyes poisoned the well last year. While I don’t blame him for trying to recoup his own money, the fact remains that even Don Draper can no longer market this team at a price point that would make them profitable, so whether it be next summer or five years from now, the fate has been sealed.

Sux.

by Spezzal Teams Playa on Aug 5, 2010 8:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would argue that location, more than demographic, is the primary factor behind the poor attendance

Because there are 41 games to attend, no single game is an event, as is the case in the NFL. Most residents will not go out of their way — literally in this case — to attend something they don’t feel is an event.

I believe hockey as a spectator sport is an easy sell. I’ve never taken anyone to a game that didn’t want to go to another one. But when it’s a chore to do so, people just aren’t going to attend — somehow this fact was ignored in the site selection process.

Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs

by Mark Parisi on Aug 6, 2010 1:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well, I hear that a lot

In fact, I hear that cited as by far the number one reason, but I am loathe to repeat it because I actually live more than twice the distance from SBP as residents in Tempe live from Jobing.

Even in traffic, of which Ottawa’s Queensway is certainly not immune at 6PM (much less after the game getting out of the parking lot), every routing software and GPS device shows my trip as much longer. And I take the bus!

Hell, I walked through the snow to a WJC game when the transit system was on strike (albeit from a location only slightly further than the Tempe-to-Jobing route. Yeah it took hours, but I had already spent $202 on a pair of tickets six months before the strike, and had already decided to give one ticket to my brother for Xmas, so thankfully he was happy enough to walk with me and forego the cost of a cab that I could never have asked him to pay. We ended up splitting a cab home with a couple we met at the game, but even that required walking another mile and waiting another hour. For the game the next night, we cabbed it both ways.

So what I was getting at in my previous post was, what are the reasons behind people’s unwillingness to sit in their comfortable air conditioned car and drive the relatively short distance from Tempe to Glendale. Is it an age thing, a cultural thing, a cost thing, or a neighborhood thing.

Because if it’s not due to people’s recent financial crises like in Detroit, or people’s advanced age like in Boca Raton, or people’s preference for soccer like in Mexico, or people’s perception that Glendale is a foreign town like the lack of cross-over between Long Island and Newark, then frankly I just don’t get why the NHL BoG should continue to support a population that has already decided that hockey does not suit them.

If MLB had a team at Lynx Stadium that routinely drew only 8000 with a ceiling of 10,000 (be it due to stadium size or simply realistic projections) and the lowest ticket prices in the league, I would conclude that Ottawa cannot support baseball and accept that the team should be moved to an American city.

So I prefer to think that distance to the rink cannot possibly be the only reason, or even the main reason. If it were so, I’d have to seriously reconsider my disapproval of those who demand the team move to Winnipeg.

It would sure suck to be you, and suck even worse to be OdinMercer or zyllyx, but I am a baseball fan who still has his stub from the last Lynx game and the last Expos home game. And there are only about 4000 people who can claim the former, only 32,000 who can claim the latter, and I imagine no more than a dozen of us who can claim both. The numbers simply didn’t warrant extreme efforts to keep either team in town.

by Spezzal Teams Playa on Aug 6, 2010 6:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

It's certainly an interesting question

Does the culture affect the location or does the location affect the culture?

It’s hard to argue that a city that truly supports hockey would have an issue over transit to a remote location for sure.

I believe Phoenix is capable of supporting an NHL team, but Coyotes management has done nothing — nothing! — to cultivate a fan base out here beyond the hardcore. The rink location is merely the most glaring of many bad decisions. Casual fans are just not willing to make the commute to Glendale for a team that has not made the effort to connect with them.

Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs

by Mark Parisi on Aug 9, 2010 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

I hear that

Imagine the marketing department that could have been recruited with the $8M a year spent on a head coach.

It’s almost as though the owner was more focused on the trucking company business that built his fortune than the hockey team he never wanted to own in the first place.

by Spezzal Teams Playa on Aug 9, 2010 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well I certainly respect that position.

I’ll agree that no hockey fan should have to see their team taken away from them.

But when you pit a rabid fanbase in a city that was a solid market for 20 years vs a huge metropolis with tons of other sports team that has hockey on the backburner at the moment, the latter have received the franchise when the former was in the same situation (lack of legitimate ownership) and the tables have turned and the former now offers the most viable market…well it’s not hard for me to choose sides.

That’s an important point to consider. If the Coyotes leave, you’ll have several hundred dissapointed fans. But then guys will continue go to the Suns, Diamondbacks or Cardinals games. Kids will go back to wanting to pretending to be a starting pitcher, quarterback or shooting guard.

In Winnipeg, you have the AHL and CFL. it’s not even close to the same as having an NHL franchise. Anyone who grew up in Canada knows how much hockey means.

Buying out Kubas since July 2010

by GelatinousMutantCoconut on Aug 7, 2010 9:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is very true

18 months ago, when the Coyotes problems first started to become apparent, happened to coincide with a Phoenix Cardinals run into February at the Super Bowl.

By the time that hype died down, and in the wake of sports fans having spent hundreds of dollars on tailgating alone, about fifteen baseball teams made their way into town. By the time the Cactus League got underway, most southwesterners were quickly becoming invested in the March Madness Regionals hosted by Glendale. The attraction to college hoops that month was more than anything of us Northerners can even fathom (I imagine it was like the WJC tournament in Ottawa X a gaijillion). By the time that was over, and focus shifted away from top-seeded UConn dominating every team that came to town, there wasn’t even a break before the DBacks held their home opener. Of course, the Yotes had already been out of contention for a couple of weeks by that point, but that wasn’t the case this past Spring, when the Regionals shifted to downtown Phoenix, further earmarking people’s mid-March sports attention in town.

Going further back, only two months before the Steelers/Steelers Super Bowl, the city of Glendale was gripped with their usual SunDevils football fever, which cuts into fan budgets every Autumn. And one year before the Cardinals made it to the big game, Glendale played host to the infamous Pat’s failed attempt to complete the perfect season in Super Bowl 42, in February 2008. And only three months before that, the DBacks hosted several October game in 2007 as the NL West champs.

So yeah, the Yotes are in tough against the Sun Devils every October/November, and often enough the DBacks, as well. Then they have to compete with Fiesta Bowl season in Glendale every January, while the rest of us are watching the Winter Classic. Then they deal with the Super Bowl that is either in town or features the Cardinals. Then the picthers and catchers of 15 teams report for duty the next day every February. Then it’s frequent Western Region hoops tourneys in March while the Cactus League is always in full swing. There simply is no slow sports day in Phoenix,and especially in Glendale, from September through April.

Millions of residents is one thing, but how much cash can people be reasonably expected to reserve for hockey?

by Spezzal Teams Playa on Aug 8, 2010 2:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

* Going further back, only two months before the Steelers/Steelers Cardinals Super Bowl

by Spezzal Teams Playa on Aug 8, 2010 2:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

Much of the revenue for March Madness, the Fiesta Bowl and other events not directly involving local teams comes from out of state travelers, though

While your point has legs, it’s important to note that fact. The largest single competitor for cash with the Coyotes are the Suns. The NBA has a similar season length and the Suns have had more success over a longer period of time.

Given a choice between a playoff Suns game downtown and a playoff Yotes game in Glendale, I’d guess 90% of people would choose the Suns.

Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs

by Mark Parisi on Aug 9, 2010 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

No doubt about that

The Suns are obviously the top competitor for residents’ leisure dollars, so I didn’t feel the ned to mention them.

But outside of that dynamic, there have been so many other one-off events in recent years that have siphoned off the remaining support that the Yotes have traditionally counted on. Maybe next year will see an uptick in sales due to the fewer options available for local sports fans.

by Spezzal Teams Playa on Aug 9, 2010 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

If the pattern holds, a playoff trip should result in an uptick

If the rumors of season ticket sales are true, though, we may be seeing the opposite — and that would be the death blow for the franchise.

Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs

by Mark Parisi on Aug 10, 2010 1:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well the save the Coyotes rally had 500 people.

And But the team has sold 1800 season tickets….so there’s probably at least at least that many.

Buying out Kubas since July 2010

by GelatinousMutantCoconut on Aug 9, 2010 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

I checked it out

your right about that blog, it is good. I was tempted to join but after what I wrote here it would get me banned. He has to be sick and tired of the former Jet fans spamming his blog but the reality is that nobody is commenting or contributing very much. I can write something about Phoenix here and get more responses. I bet the other Phoenix sports blogs get more traffic. Imagine if instead of a gimmick move like bringing in Gretzky to coach they had hired a coach like Tippet right from the beginning, how much further ahead they would be.

by Hockey Playoff Run SensFan on Aug 5, 2010 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

I currently reside in Phoenix

I was also at that game. The attendance was sparse.

There are two problems with the Coyotes and the major one is the stadium location. The team could have built at a central location in Tempe, which would have been right nearby Arizona State University, as well as the big party areas of Mill Avenue and Tempe Town Lake, and also easily accesssible via the city’s new lightrail system. A mall was built on that land instead.

Downtown would have also been a viable option, though most of Phoenix’s night life is centered in Tempe. The Phoenix Suns play downtown, and sell out on a regular basis.

Of course, they are also successful. The Cardinals often have more of their opponents’ fans in the stands than hometown fans because they haven’t been successful. Last year coming off their Super Bowl run was the first time they’ve sold out every game at the new stadium, and now that they did not return to the Super Bowl, ticket sales are down.

The city itself has many snow birds, which means only successful teams are supported. The core fanbases are small, and the fairweather fans who come in from cold climates for the winter only want to see winning teams. The Coyotes have not been a good team in many years, so it will take more than one playoff season to bail them out.

I would be surprised if the team can be saved at this point, which sucks for hockey fans here, but the decision to build in Glendale was a long term move for a team who didn’t have their short term future secured. It was a risky gamble which is not paying off.

Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs

by Mark Parisi on Aug 5, 2010 1:19 PM EDT reply actions  

Thanks for the insight

 I do feel bad for the true hockey fans who live there, just like hard core fans of any sport pay the price when a team is rebuilding and attendance nosedives. Bad management has plagued this franchise from it’s inception. Tell me, was attendance better in the old arena. The Ottawa Senators have also suffered at the hand of bad city and for that matter provincial government decisions with little foresight on how the team would impact the community in a positive way in the long run. It took bankruptcy and a salary cap to even the field and allow it to survive.

by Hockey Playoff Run SensFan on Aug 5, 2010 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't really know how Florida gets by

The attendance is low, the team hasn’t made the playoffs in a decade and how many people can name a Panthers player?

Mariners and Senators fan in Miami, covering the team in Ottawa at Silver Seven

by Alexander Calloway on Aug 6, 2010 10:58 AM EDT reply actions  

Tomas Vokoun

According to Gabe Desjardins of Behind the Net, he’s the NHL’s best goaltender.

by Peter Raaymakers on Aug 6, 2010 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

What's up with teams with low attendance and great goalies

And Vokoun is awesome, it just sucks that all the years he’s been down here the team hasn’t been able to do anything. Tallon gives hope that Florida will be in the playoffs, but that’s not going to happen next season (or the year after) and Vokoun isn’t getting any younger.

Mariners and Senators fan in Miami, covering the team in Ottawa at Silver Seven

by Alexander Calloway on Aug 6, 2010 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

The unofficial Ottawa Senators blog

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recent FanPosts

Small
Building a Cup Contender for Next Season!
Bosch_small
How Does Daniel Alfredsson's Season Compare to Others of the Same Age?
Small
Why is everyone so excited for Zibanajad?
Small
Would Zibanajad, Foligno and 2012 #1 Pick... get Nash???
Small
Filatov is our #1 prospect
Modsuperstar-new-avatar_small
Games in hand might come in handy
Small
Senators at the Deadline, my thoughts
Bosch_small
Big Rig 1000
Small
Leafs Taking over Sens Scotiabank Place
Small
On rumour saying that Sens targeting Ruutu of Hurricanes

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >


Managers

Heritage_small Peter Raaymakers

Hutz_small DarrenM

Editors

Sens_small Mark Parisi

Sens-suicidebooth_small Ryan Classic

Karlssonpoint_small Adnan

Authors

Small DaveYoung

Small Varada

Bobby__small bobbykelly